[00:00:00] EVAN CARLSON: I see myself as a reader who is devout and has a practice and who powers through and who doesn't just reread the first 100 pages of War and Peace five times instead of getting through the whole thing.
ANNE BOGEL: That's a very specific example.
EVAN: It's a specific and true example.
ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.
[00:00:53] Readers, our new summer merch is here, and we've already found new favorites to add to our bookish collections. Whether or not you ordered the Summer Reading Guide, you are sure to love our new bookish road trip-inspired merch, like our bumper stickers and indie bookstore concert tour tee.
Personally, I'm loving our new Well Read hats, which I will be wearing all summer long. I've already found it to be a great conversation starter.
This year, for the first time, we're also offering a professionally printed magazine version of the Summer Reading Guide, which you can add to your a la carte order or buy on its own. Check out our new stickers, tees, hats, and more, along with favorites from last year's book camp theme and past year's Summer Reading Guides at ModernMrsDarcy.com/shop. That's ModernMrsDarcy.com/shop.
[00:01:45] Today's guest is a devoted nonfiction reader, actor, and poet from Chicago with a unique reading conundrum. Evan Carlson loves to read books that change the way he sees the world and subvert the way he thinks about something, and he's been able to find these works among the poetry and nonfiction he frequently reads.
But in his guest submission, he told us that he often gets bored by the fiction he turns to, can I help? Evan is confident there are fiction works out there that would actually excite and engage him, but he's not sure how to find them. I have so many questions for Evan and cannot wait to explore his dilemma today.
Let's get to it.
Evan, welcome to the show.
EVAN: Thank you for having me on. This is great.
ANNE: Oh, my gosh. The pleasure is mine. I'm excited to talk books today. Although, as I was just telling you, I have no idea where this conversation is going to lead us, but I'm excited to find out.
Evan, tell us about yourself. We want to give the reader a glimpse of who you are, where you are in the world.
[00:02:46] EVAN: I'm from North Carolina, Durham, North Carolina, and I just graduated last May from Illinois Wesleyan University with a degree in acting. So I moved up here to Chicago to pursue acting and writing and all sorts of things while also having a day job. Right now, I'm in the process of a lot of things.
ANNE: That's relatable to a lot of readers. Can you say a little more?
EVAN: I want to be an actor. I am an actor. I write poetry and screenplays, and all these things. I write them when I actually make time for it. Same with reading.
ANNE: That's relatable.
EVAN: I have this vision of myself as a person who writes and reads every day for lengthy times in the morning, but that never really happens the way it's supposed to.
I love the city of Chicago. It's got its ups and downs, but there's so many great people here that want to support you in everything you do that it's sort of artistically fulfilling just to be alive here.
[00:03:57] ANNE: I feel like you're standing in a long tradition when you say that.
EVAN: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There's so much great history here of writers and actors and just people.
ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. Evan, you've given us hints, but tell us a little bit about your reading life. What role does that play in your life, or what's your history with it?
EVAN: It often comes in waves. About a month ago, I had a wave of reading where I thought, "The rest of my life was going to go like this, by the way," which it didn't. Any time that I had any free time, I was just reading and reading and reading poetry and nonfiction, even fiction.
Then one day, I just picked up the book because I'd finished all the books that were in my wave. My new wave is a bunch of books that I don't really enjoy reading, so it's hard to push through them. I go through these two waves of a ton of reading and then nothing.
[00:05:06] Frankly, it's the same way with my writing is I'll have a month of not putting a single word down and then a weekend where I write way too much.
I started out because my mom, who is an avid listener of this podcast, so I want to shout her out here.
ANNE: Thanks, Mom. Hi, Mom.
EVAN: Yeah. She read to me Harry Potter, and that completely hooked me into everything reading. So when COVID happened, I hadn't read a book since getting a phone in middle school, essentially. And I thought, "You know what? I need to reset this, and I went back to Harry Potter.
But because of the phone, I couldn't get through a paragraph without checking my phone or stopping it. It took a long time to be able to read a book without being distracted. I still struggle with that today. But that's my process that got me here where I read maybe between 40 and 60 books a year, depending on the year now, for the past four years at least.
[00:06:18] ANNE: Okay. How do you feel about the reading life that comes in waves?
EVAN: You see, it's one of those things. I think I mentioned that I see myself as a reader who is devout and has a practice and who powers through and who doesn't just reread the first 100 pages of War and Peace five times instead of getting through the whole thing.
ANNE: That's a very specific example.
EVAN: It's a specific and true example.
ANNE: Okay. Okay.
EVAN: I see myself as the kind of person who could sit down and read War and Peace in a year, but in practice, it's very sporadic. I still get a lot of reading done but I struggle with it consistently being the thing I reach to. Because when I finish a book that's really inspired me in some way, I find it difficult to get into the next one.
[00:07:10] Like when I reread Harry Potter, it made it harder to pick up another piece of fiction because I was missing that. If I read a book... like there's a memoir by Alan Arkin, who's a great actor. I finished that. After that, I couldn't really read much because I was missing that book. That's sort of what part of the cause is.
I sort of don't like that my vision of myself as a reader doesn't match up with my real-life practice.
ANNE: Interesting. Okay. Instead of asking you a bunch of questions to suss out what I'm curious about, I'll just ask you directly: do you feel like these waves are part of your natural rhythm that you can see and honor, or is this not what you want in your reading life, in your life?
EVAN: I think it's not what I want because often the thing that I noticed that stops me from continuing, and I know a lot of folks struggle with this, is social media and my phone. I try things. Recently, I deleted Instagram and everything from my phone, but then I find that I scroll on my laptop instead.
And so it comes back, and I'm like, "Why couldn't I be reading right now? Why couldn't I be reading right now?" But then, it just keeps you hooked.
[00:08:38] But then, when I am reading a lot, I'm able to sink into it. But it has to be, for some reason, a book that just grips me at the beginning.
ANNE: Okay, that's interesting. What do you typically reach for? What are you looking for out of your books?
EVAN: I'll break it down into three parts because I've got three categories for my reading.
ANNE: Oooh.
EVAN: I'm usually reading three books at once.
ANNE: I like a well-thought-out breakdown.
EVAN: I found it's consistently been true. When I am reading, I usually read about three books at once because of these categories.
One is a book of poetry. I love to have a book of poetry, usually contemporary poetry. Then I have some kind of nonfiction. Usually, that's books about writing or books about theater and acting or books that are memoirs or something. I count that as in the nonfiction bubble.
[00:09:36] Then the third is fiction. This is the category that I maybe love the most, but that I have the most difficulties with. I find that that is the one where I reach for things that I have read before and I know I love, but it's harder for me to reach for new things.
Like in poetry, I'm always picking up a new poet. I'm always reading new poetry and getting excited by it. And part of that is that poems are short. I can pretty easily know if I'm going to like a book of poetry by opening it randomly and pulling something out.
Nonfiction, I often read nonfiction that I already love the thinker or the writer who wrote it, whether it's a great acting teacher or somebody that I admire. That's what usually is the starting point for me, for nonfiction.
For fiction, it's been difficult. It's usually a YA book right now, which I love YA, but I want to branch out into those other many, many other types of fiction books.
[00:10:49] ANNE: Okay. Yeah, I noticed earlier you were describing what you read and you said, "Even fiction".
EVAN: Even fiction, yeah.
ANNE: Yeah. Evan, you mentioned that you are constantly discovering new poets. That's easy for you.
EVAN: Yeah, yeah.
ANNE: How are you finding them?
EVAN: One secret is that I just went to college and I took a poetry class. My poetry professor, Mike Toomey, is just this incredible, incredible teacher. He's got a similar gift that you have for recommending books and poets that work well.
Because before I went to college, I thought of myself as somebody who read poetry and wrote poetry, but I did not. I just wrote a poem in second grade or something, and the label sticked onto me. But I found that it was boring or it was not enjoyable to read.
[00:11:48] That's because I was only seeing the stuff that we were, quote unquote, "supposed to be reading". But Mike, he was able to say, "But have you read this poet or this book?" or "I think you'd like this because it's strange and interesting."
And so slowly I got recommendations from him of poets like Austin Smith and Mark Yakich. And then once you find a poet, you realize they're going to tell you who their favorite poets are, usually in the back of the book or somewhere, or they write a poem about their favorite poet. And then you discover them.
Or in the case of Mark Yakich, he's a poet who also created a poetry anthology that's the opposite of what most anthologies are, because it's filled with just excitement and new poems and poets. And so there's always going to be a million more poets than I could ever know. So it feels like my well is full with poetry options, you know?
[00:12:52] ANNE: Mm-hmm. So those options we get more options and poems are short, so you can taste and see and then move on to more. Okay.
I'm really excited to explore how you might move forward. Although it sounds like I don't know enough about surfing or the ocean to really extend this metaphor. But when you are experiencing a wave in your reading life, it's really working. So you know what that feels like. And I'm hoping to find some ways that will let you extend that experience.
Evan, you know how the show works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and we will suss out the directions you can go in next. Are you ready to talk about your books?
EVAN: Absolutely.
ANNE: Okay. How did you choose these today?
EVAN: I went with these three categories. I wanted these to represent sort of larger patterns. These books that I chose are more like the door that opens into the room of all the books like it.
[00:14:00] ANNE: Yes, we can work with that. Tell me about the first book you love.
EVAN: Poetry: A Survivor's Guide by Mark Yakich. And it is not a normal nonfiction book. It's almost like having a conversation with a really smart, witty, incredible poet, mentor, all these things. It's just a great book. It inspired me to enjoy poetry more and not be bored by it and not think that I have to be bored by it.
So I love this book because it made it fun. And it even opens with talking about how you need to dispel the notion that poetry and reading poetry is going to dramatically change your life. Because he says your life is already changing all the time. Poetry just says we need to stop and pay attention for a moment to it.
[00:15:01] ANNE: Evan, what led you to that book?
EVAN: I actually got the opportunity to meet Mark Yakich because he came into my poetry class three years ago, and he talked to us. He's this great guy. And he went to the same university that I went to. We sat in a circle. And I remember asking him a question about, "How do you write about people that you know?" And he said, "Oh, you should read my novel." And he threw his novel across the room at me so I could have it.
That's just sort of the person he is. But his poems are just alive and strange and different than anything you've read. I mean, you sometimes think, "Are you allowed to say that in a poem when you read his stuff?"
Then this past year, I saw that he had written this book about poetry and I already loved his poems, and so I thought, "Well, I'll see what he has to say."
[00:16:02] This book, it's almost written like a book of poetry because it's broken up in these thoughts and sayings almost. So it doesn't feel like just boring academic writing. It's very alive. That's how I discovered that one.
ANNE: So this falls into the first category. Well, I don't know. Is this a book of poetry or a book about writing or a little of each?
EVAN: I would say that this is a book about writing. This is a nonfiction book. And it's the kind of nonfiction book that I especially love because it feels alive. It feels like I'm talking to somebody who has great ideas that I'd never considered before and not in a way that feels academic and like it's pulling you down and making you feel bad about not knowing the words that are in it.
[00:16:52] But it still tackles these huge ideas about poetry. I mean, he gives an example of writer's block, which anybody as a writer has experienced or at least said we experienced. And he said when we look at a blank page, all we have to do is close our eyes and look at the blank page that's always been there and then we can be a little less afraid of the little piece of paper that we've got.
ANNE: Okay. I think that's really interesting that he says less afraid. Thank you for describing that.
Evan, what's the second book you love?
EVAN: The Black Riders by Stephen Crane. This is a book of poetry.
ANNE: Of all the poetry you've read, this is the one you chose to bring today as the second book you love. Why Stephen Crane?
EVAN: This is the one I chose for a lot of reasons. And it's interesting because most of the poetry I read is contemporary, was written in the last 50 years. But this was written in the 1800s. It's by a guy who is most famous for not his poetry, but for The Red Badge of Courage, which a lot of folks have read. But I've actually only read his poetry. So I'm sort of in a different sphere of knowing Stephen Crane.
[00:18:09] But his poems they're very short. They're unnamed. They're little worlds. They're strange. And when I first read them, I got given this book by Mike, my poetry teacher, and he said, "I think you'll like this because it's strange and it's short and it doesn't ramble on. It doesn't feel academic. It doesn't feel like it's boring poetry." And I picked it up and I was shocked.
And I thought it was written like in the 1970s, and he said, "No, this was written over 100 years ago." And so that's why I picked it, because it's a book of poetry that kind of changed my life about what poems could be, because they're not the expected way to write a poem.
[00:19:04] A lot of poetry I read has less accessibility to it. I read it and I say, "I'm not enjoying this. I don't understand this. So how could somebody who just picks up a book of poetry who's never delved into poetry very much understand this at all?"
Because I feel like I'm in the at least some of the top percent of poetry readers out here. And so if I'm not getting it, if I'm not enjoying it, but people are sort of applauding the academic qualities of something, I don't see how somebody who's just, not just, but who is a reader who wants to get into poetry would enjoy that. But Stephen Crane shows you that poems don't have to be boring. They can be strange and exciting and be little worlds in five lines.
ANNE: Okay. I noticed that "strange and short" held big appeal for you.
EVAN: Yeah. Well, because it forces me to look at it. It's the same with nonfiction is I don't really want to read something that confirms anything, I think. And so I don't really want to read poems that are just nice. You know, I like a nice poem, but I like a nice poem that makes me turn back and say, "What did I just read? Wait."
[00:20:19] ANNE: Now I wish I could search everything I've ever read that drew out the reaction "what did I just read?" Because I know I've written that exactly on Modern Mrs Darcy and in My Reading Journal. Okay. Okay. I'm going to put that in my pipe.
Evan, what's the final book you love?
EVAN: The final book here is Unwind by Neal Shusterman. I picked this because it represents sort of all the YA books I've read and loved. But this one specifically, I didn't read when I was in high school or middle school. I actually read this just a couple months ago.
This is a book that I didn't go back to read. It's a book that I discovered, and somebody recommended it to me because they said it tackles some big issues and makes you really think about things. I picked it up, and it's YA, but it really challenged my thinking.
[00:21:19] It was exciting to read and I love it because it opened a door that... just a crack that was a little bit closed for me, which is new books that are fiction that I haven't read before. So that was a great book for me to read.
ANNE: I'd love to hear more about the fiction you read. I think you said was primarily YA?
EVAN: Yeah, primarily.
ANNE: Talk to me about that. I'm interested in hearing, is that what feels good to you right now? Is that most familiar? Is that where you want to stay?
EVAN: Well, it's most familiar in a lot of ways. I mean, Harry Potter was big, The Hunger Games. I just read the newest installment in that. I also loved the Chaos Walking series, The Knife of Never Letting Go, and all these great books.
Right now I think I read it because it's very familiar and it's comforting. You know, I'm going through a lot of changes right now. I moved to a new city. I'm pursuing a career path that maybe can't be described as a path, and these books that I have read before that I know will bring this comfort to me are really easy to go back to.
[00:22:34] That I think is part of why I've stuck with these YA books that have really helped me throughout my life. But now I also want to branch out and read other things because when I have read other books that are, that are not YA, I've loved a lot of them, but for some reason, it's hard for me to break into it and to go into a journey that I don't know the end of.
ANNE: Okay. Is now a good time to say how many theater majors we've had on our Modern Mrs. Darcy/What Should I Read Next team?
EVAN: Sure.
ANNE: Y'all, I love a theater major. And by that, I don't just mean many of the favorite people in my life are theater majors, though that is also true, but you can think, organize, mobilize, communicate. Those are the skills. I'm very optimistic for your future. I know that you hope much of it will be on stage, or at least I imagine, but yeah, you got a path.
[00:23:37] EVAN: Well, thank you. I agree with you. I think that acting is about every single thing in life. It's not about acting, it's about people, and reading lets you learn more about people. So I find that being a reader has drastically helped my acting because I get to experience more people's thoughts and ideas and lives.
ANNE: Evan, tell us about a book that was not right for you. And I'd love to hear why. Not to your taste, was the timing wrong? Topic wasn't the right fit for right now?
EVAN: Yeah. So I put down The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood. There's a couple caveats to this selection. The first big one is that I haven't actually read the whole thing.
ANNE: Okay, noted.
EVAN: I struggled with this question because, for better or worse, I don't push through if I'm not enjoying a book. I don't force myself to finish it. That lesson came from a theater maker named Peter Brook, who wrote a great book called The Empty Space, which in that book... and this ties back because now I remember this is what made me start liking Shakespeare was that he said, "If you're at a production of Shakespeare that bores you, it doesn't mean that you're not understanding it. It doesn't mean that it's good for you to continue watching it because somehow watching Shakespeare is good for you, even if it's boring." He said, "Just leave because it's not a good play. It's not a good production."
[00:25:12] And he says that the greatest tool a director has is their capacity for boredom because you don't have to like something that you're bored with. And so now if I start being bored by something, I just put it down because I want to listen to that instinct that I have and really let it grow.
But with The Handmaid's Tale, I think it also represents a category of books that I would say are the ones that I'm supposed to read. And with those, I find that they're the books that I kind of most want to read, like the classic works of literature, like War and Peace. I've got that on my shelf and I want to read it, but the wanting of it and the expectation surrounding it kind of kills it for me.
ANNE: Whether that's personality-wise or time-of-life-wise, that's important to know, like "should" is a real buzzkill.
EVAN: Oh yeah, yeah. But that's why I tell myself so much in my reading life is I really should read this. I really should read that. This is good because I'm becoming more self-aware now. That's sort of what is shutting me down a little.
[00:26:27] ANNE: I will just say, this is not a suggestion, definitely not a should. I finally read that book when I listened to Claire Danes perform it for me, which is very understated, her approach. That format exists. That's all I'm going to say about that.
Evan, what have you been reading lately?
EVAN: Well, this is why I'm so excited to be on this podcast right now because I am in the low tide right now with reading. If you go on my Goodreads, I'm technically reading about 15 books, but most of them I haven't picked up in a little while. So I would say I'm not really reading anything right now to a big degree.
I recently read a couple books that I really loved, one being The Dark Interval by John Dominic Crossan, and then another being Yaguareté White by Diego Báez, who's a great Chicago poet. But those, when I finished them, I sort of was met with nothing else.
[00:27:36] ANNE: All right, we will see what we can do. Evan, what are you looking for in your reading life right now?
EVAN: I'm looking to really enjoy fiction again and enjoy new fiction. And be able to read it consistently and pick it up. When I might be reaching for something like my phone, I'd rather be reaching for a great book of fiction, a great novel to take me into another world, to teach me things, to excite me, to do all these great things that reading has done for me over the years. But that I almost am scared to pick up a novel now because I know that it probably isn't going to do that for me right now.
ANNE: I've been a little surprised how much fear has come up in our conversation today. I'm wondering what you feel like you lose if you pick up a novel that ends up not being for you.
[00:28:29] EVAN: Oh, that's interesting. What do I lose? I think time is one thing that I lose. And I've done the math on this before, which actually got me reading a lot more was that I was acting like I didn't have the time to read, and then I would look at my screen time on my phone and it was this unimaginable number of hours that made me realize I actually do have the time to read. I'm just feeling bad about reading and feeling like reading takes up my time, but not feeling bad about being on my phone.
And so when I was reading, I would feel like, oh, I could be doing so many other things. I have laundry to do. I have monologues to learn. I have this and that. But when I was on my phone, I wasn't having those feelings. And so I think it's been a process of trying to take that away from my reading life, that idea that when I'm reading, I could be doing something else, but when I'm on my phone, that's my full attention and focus.
[00:29:30] ANNE: Okay, that's so interesting. I'm imagining what if we could see the Instagram we've scrolled as pages bound.
EVAN: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
ANNE: Okay. I was really captured by what you said about Mark Yakich, how in Poetry: A Survivor's Guide, he talked about being less afraid of the blank page.
EVAN: Yeah.
ANNE: Kind of thinking of your reading life during the fallow seasons, to mix my metaphors, as being like the blank page that you're filling. And I understand all kinds of reasons to feel some trepidation about filling that. And also, I'm really excited about what you could discover feels like really exciting to you to read, maybe if you can connect with different kinds of works.
It sounds like creating a structure that works for you. Maybe "structure" is the wrong word, but I do see you like kinda circling around this idea of time online versus time with books.
EVAN: Yeah. Oh, definitely.
[00:30:31] ANNE: Okay. I believe in you. Evan, one more question and then we'll get into some books I think you may enjoy. I was really intrigued by what you said in your submission, and you've touched on it a little today, but you said the nonfiction you love changes the way you see the world, but you often get bored by the fiction you read. Is there anything else I should know about that before we try to pluck out some books that may be good for you?
EVAN: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, a great example of fiction that changes the way I see things is I just read The Dark Interval by John Dominic Crossan, and in that, he sort of makes the case that our whole lives are story, and that all we have is story and words and all this stuff, and the stories that we tell ourselves can be subverted by other stories.
[00:31:21] He gives the example of one story that we tell in our lives is that you put bad people in prison and good people don't go to prison. But he says that a story that subverts that, sort of a parable of that, would be Martin Luther King being put in jail.
And then you notice that if the story of our lives is that good people go to jail, but this great person, Martin Luther King, is being put in jail, it shows that there's maybe a crack in that story that we've been telling ourselves.
So, that book really changed the way I thought about life in general and stories and the way that we approach them. So, things that challenge me in that way, nonfiction that almost feels like a page turner to me, that presents me with new ideas that force me to look at life differently is what I really love.
[00:32:17] ANNE: All right. That is very helpful and really paints a picture of what you find really satisfying from a good book no matter the genre. I'm also noticing... well, I'm also wondering when it comes to poetry and your love of it, that I imagine you really admire when an author makes the words fall in exactly the right order and really have an appreciation for the ability to do more with less, ambiguity, the reader's responsibility as cocreator and interpreter.
EVAN: Yeah.
ANNE: Okay. All right. Now I'm just procrastinating because, you know, I don't like fiction but recommending me some is kind of daunting. But I'm really thinking about how you like strange and short. You haven't used these words, but compact and concise seems to speak to you. You're looking for books that make you think differently about the world, and you love when stories are subverted. Is it fair that you love to be surprised?
[00:33:19] EVAN: Yeah. I mean, that's one thing that my poetry professor, Mike Toomey, put into words for me, because he wrote a book about the poetic turn, called Structure and Surprise, which is just incredible. Because it says, the thing that is great about poetry is when it turns and when it surprises us. So I love surprise.
ANNE: All right. That's super helpful. Evan, let's recap your books. You loved Poetry: A Survivor's Guide by Mark Yakich, The Black Writers by Stephen Crane, and Unwind by Neal Shusterman. The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood, not for you. And lately, you've been reading a book changing the way you think about so many things, especially stories, The Dark Interval by John Dominic Crossan, and Diego Báez, the Chicago Poet's work, Yaguareté White.
I'm interested in starting with a book that did indeed make me finish it. And again, me, not you. But I finished it and went, "What did I just read?" It's quite a reading experience packed into just 200, actually small-format 200 pages. And it's about acting and actors and the stage and performances.
[00:34:31] I'm just bearing my lead. I'm thinking about Audition by Katie Kitamura. Is this one you've known or have seen around?
EVAN: I don't think I know this one. No.
ANNE: Okay. Not sad about this. It just came out in April. And readers, if this sounds familiar, we talked about it in our Spring Book Preview back in, oh gosh, January. This was such a page turner, and also, I found it to be such an intellectual delight because you're pushed to not only dissect the story on the page, but also to think really hard about the interplay between artistry and life and how each influences the other, and what is a performance and what is authentic, and is there any such thing as a divide between the two?
I really liked the way the publisher described this. Wait, but first, let me tell you, this book is cut in half. You are presented with a story for the first half of the book and you're reading, you're reading, you're finding out everything you think you know, you're getting one perspective. And then at the halfway point, you shift and the story becomes something else.
[00:35:37] And when that happens, it's jarring and then engages you in a very different way as you figure out what to make of these two competing narratives that go in very different directions. So the publisher says, "This begins when two people meet for lunch in a Manhattan restaurant. She's an elegant and accomplished actress in rehearsals for an upcoming premiere. He is attractive, troubling, and young, young enough to be her son. Who is he to her and who is she to him?"
I think critics have called this a Möbius strip of a novel. This is absolutely not for readers who hate ambiguous endings and need to know what happened, like there's a definitive answer.
But Evan, I think it might be interesting for you as they're both like... they. "They" is Katie Kitamura. But the characters in the book also are shining light on the masks we wear and how we perform for the audience, but also the audience of one or two, like the people we love, our best friends. How does this sound to you? I
[00:36:42] EVAN: I'm very interested by this one. That sounds really intriguing. It sounds like it works the way I like books to work, which sometimes feels like it doesn't work, but in a good way. You know? Thank you for that recommendation.
ANNE: Happy to do it. I don't want to recommend you poetry, but I'm curious about going poetry adjacent.
EVAN: Sure.
ANNE: You've probably read it, but we have to talk about Bluets by Maggie Nelson in case you haven't.
EVAN: I have not. No.
ANNE: Okay. Do you know anything about this or her work?
EVAN: No. I actually don't.
ANNE: Okay. This is genre-defying. It's almost structured like a poem, but it's not a poem exactly. Can we call them prose poems? But I haven't told you what "them" is. So this is difficult to categorize in any one genre, and I really like that for you. And it's also brought me great joy to see the real genre benders appealing to readers more and more these days and to see authors create those works more and more.
[00:37:43] But Bluets is 240 numbered prose poems in order, one, two, three, four, five, up to two forty, that are written from the perspective of someone who is deeply in love, like completely obsessed with the color blue. And they are about love and loss and grief.
And she borrows from all these sources like psychology and art and literature, music, philosophy, to write about these themes through the lens of the color blue, but also includes these just deeply personal witnessings about what she's lived and experienced. Although sometimes she makes some questions and not statements exactly. So it almost feels like a list poem, but it's something else entirely. How does this sound?
EVAN: That sounds really interesting. Yeah. And I love that it draws on lots of things, outside of just the world of poetry or writing, but it pulls from psychology and all these other fields and ideas.
[00:38:58] ANNE: I'm glad to hear that. Evan, for your third book, I feel like there's a lot of directions we could go. So there's some great YA novels that I think may hold appeal to you. I mean, you could easily Google novels by poets and see how those sound for you in your reading life right now.
There's some really great nonfiction that explicitly asks big questions and offers competing answers to those questions that I think you may enjoy. I'm thinking of Alan Lightman as an example.
But I'm wondering about this new release out this summer called These Heathens. This might not be for you, but maybe it really, really is. So you talked about how stories can be subverted, and use the example from one of your favorite books about Martin Luther King, Jr, and about good people going to prison.
[00:39:54] It's making me think of this new novel by Mia McKenzie. It's called These Heathens. It's not a YA book, it's an adult novel, but the protagonist is 17 years old. Her name is Doris. She has grown up in small town Alabama, and she loved school and literature and learning, but she had to drop out because her momma needed her at home. And so she's been helping out at home.
But before she did, she was the star student of Mrs. Lucas. So Doris finds herself pregnant and she persuades her favorite teacher to take her to Atlanta for an abortion.
So what happens here is this small town, pious girl who has been raised up at church, every time the doors are open, told, you know, this is who Jesus loves, this is what God wants, this is how long your hem should be and this is why, she goes to spend the weekend mingling with her teachers, queer Black friends, civil rights leaders like Martin Luther King Jr. is in the pages of this book, his wife, Coretta Scott King. There are historical celebrities and singers in the pages of this book that Doris knows because she's seen them in Ebony. And she finds their behavior utterly shocking.
[00:41:10] She's finding that her experience with the people she's always told are bad and wrong and terrible is subverting everything she's been told. She's been told that people are cruel and unkind and have no love in them. And she's like, "I don't know. Nobody's been nicer to me than Mrs. Lucas' friends or Coretta Scott King."
So she is torn between thinking, "My mama certainly wouldn't approve, but she can also see they have good hearts and common sense and seem to be looking out for her." So we see her over the course of this weekend telling us her story in the first person. And she has such a distinctive voice. I love the style of this novel and the words she used. I mean, I felt like I was in Doris' head. But she's telling us everything she takes in over the weekend and what she thinks it means to her and how she's constantly having to rethink everything she thought she's ever known.
And then at the very end of the book, we get like a nice little... there's no epilogue here. I know how some readers feel about those. But we get just a little reflection from a distance about what that weekend meant to her.
[00:42:17] Now, I don't know if this is gonna be right for you, but what do you think?
EVAN: Yeah. I like the sound of it because it's somebody going through this journey of discovering that the story they've been told is maybe not the whole story. But it also has sort of a backdrop of politics and religion and all these things that I'm really interested by. Usually, when that kind of content is in something, I'm at least drawn to it in some way. So I like the prospect of this one.
ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. And I'm so curious what you think about these.
Evan, of the books we talked about today, they are Audition by Katie Kitamura, Bluets by Maggie Nelson, and not out till June 17, so not too long to wait, but you can't go grab it today, These Heathens by Mia McKenzie. Of those books, what do you think you may pick up next?
EVAN: They all really do interest me. So, I do think I will pick up all of them. I appreciate these terrific recommendations. But I think that Audition is the one that I'll pick up first.
[00:43:24] ANNE: I am so curious to hear what you think. Because it's strange. You know, the ambiguity is there. But what were you saying about accessibility and poetry and how you... what I heard was like, you're up for anything, maybe. I'm curious how that may or may not carry over to fiction.
EVAN: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I love that this is also a shorter book, and so it doesn't feel daunting in that way, which takes some of the fear out of it. And it sounds like that's part of what makes it accessible, you know?
ANNE: Well, I'm so curious to hear what you think. Evan, this has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for talking books with me today.
EVAN: Thank you for having me on. I appreciate it.
ANNE: Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Evan, and I'd love to hear what you think he may enjoy reading next. Find Evan at his website, evancarlsonactor.com, and find the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldIreadnextpodcast.com.
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English (US) · 