[00:00:00] TZIPI TURNER: I'm sometimes about the new shiny thing, like, "Oh, I want to read this book now. And I want to read this book." There's so many books that people recommend or that are just coming out that I want to read those books. And maybe it's the same thing. Jane Austen is always going to be there.
ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.
[00:00:53] Readers, we are celebrating the sixth anniversary of my book, Don't Overthink It, which if you're doing the math in your head, that means this book came out in 2020 on March 3rd, right when the world was about to shut down. Since then, I've been gratified to see that it has staying power. New readers are continuing to find their way to it and find it interesting and helpful when they do.
If you have not yet picked up Don't Overthink It, I would love to invite you now to add it to your 2026 reading list. Find out more and get your copy of Don't Overthink It wherever you like to buy your books. Or order a signed and even personalized copy from our shop at modernmrsdarcy.com/shop. We decided to run a little sale in honor of the book's sixth anniversary, and that discount is reflected in our shop. Check it out at modernmrsdarcy.com/shop.
But really, thank you for reading this for six years and counting, thank you for giving it legs, and thank you for telling me how it continues to impact your lives even now. I'm excited that it's worked for so many readers and will continue to do so. Happy reading.
[00:01:54] Readers, it's no secret that around here we are fans of Jane Austen, completist author aspirations, and reading projects of all stripes. So when Tzipi Turner's guest submission landed in our What Should I Read Next? inbox, we could not wait to invite her on and talk all about it.
Tzipi lives in Phoenix, where she's director of special education for a local school district and a new grandmother. Tzipi is also an aspiring Jane Austen completist, and she's decided to mark Jane Austen's recent 250th birthday by finally making progress towards, or maybe even actually reaching, the goal to complete all those works. But motivation is proving hard to come by as Tzipi has identified her tendency to get distracted by shiny new releases.
For those reasons, she's been contemplating a book-flight kind of approach, borrowed from wine flights for our classic 2013 Modern Mrs. Darcy blog post, to help her kindle some enthusiasm for reading those remaining Austen titles. She's imagining pairing each Austen classic with a contemporary book, but what should those modern picks be? Well, Tzipi doesn't know yet, but we're going to talk about it today.
[00:03:03] Tzipi is also eager to step out of her comfort zone when it comes to reading in general, and is excited about how this project might give her a little push in new directions. I'm excited to dive in and see what Tzipi and I can come up with together. Let's get to it.
Tzipi, welcome to the show.
TZIPI: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
ANNE: Oh my gosh, the pleasure's mine. I'm so glad that we can talk books today.
TZIPI: Me too.
ANNE: Tzipi, would you tell us a little bit about yourself? We want to give our readers a glimpse of who you are.
TZIPI: I grew up in Los Angeles, but I live now in Phoenix, Arizona for about the last 23 years, with my husband and our two dogs, Lola and CJ. I have three adult children. I have a daughter and identical twin boys, which is always fun. I recently became a grandmother, so my little grandbaby is the light of my life right now. And we have another one on the way, actually.
ANNE: Oh, congratulations.
[00:04:01] TZIPI: Thank you. Thank you. Any day now, actually.
ANNE: Oh, wow.
TZIPI: We're waiting. I'm the director of special education for a school district in Chandler, Tempe and Phoenix. We have students from preschool through eighth grade. I basically oversee the special education services, which is legal compliance, staff, training, lots of things. The great thing about working in a school district is that I'm often around people who love to read. So we're always trading book ideas and telling each other what we loved. It's great, as you always say, to be around people who are reading.
ANNE: Tzipi, tell us a little bit about your reading life.
TZIPI: I'm always, always reading. And I always have. As a kid, I remember reading by flashlight in bed. I read The Bobbsey Twins. I read every Judy Blume book I could get my hands on. I still read every night before bed. I typically read actual physical books. I don't really do e-readers or audiobooks every once in a while. But I just like holding the book. I like the sensory part of it.
[00:05:24] I read two books at a time, usually. I read about a novel a week and I also read a nonfiction book. I think of them as my leadership books. I'm putting that in air quotes. I don't like to think of it as self-help. It's more about learning something about myself or about my work. Some of them are related to education and schooling, like The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog or The Anxious Generation. Others are like The Let Them Theory. There was one you recommended. The Art of Gathering. So those kinds of things where I feel like I'm learning something.
And those books take me maybe a month to six weeks to read, because I'll read maybe a chapter a week or a chapter or two a week just to kind of keep up on it. But my novels, my other books, I just... it's like a constant thing.
ANNE: Okay. How do you decide what to read?
[00:06:25] TZIPI: Book recommendations. A lot comes from this podcast, from people at work. My mom and I also are always sending each other reading recommendations. She's in a book club, so she'll tell me, "Oh, I'm reading this book." But then, like, two weeks later, she's like, "I did not like it. I don't think you should read it." But other times it's like, "This is a great book." She just read one that she was like, "Oh, this is one of the best books I've ever read." So that kind of thing.
I tend to get very excited when people tell me about books, and then I write them all down and add them to my TBR. And then sometimes I forget why I wanted to read it, what was it that was appealing to me later.
ANNE: That's relatable.
TZIPI: And I started trying to keep, in Google Notes, who recommended it and why, but it was just too cumbersome. So I don't do that. Often I will check like 10 books out of the library at a time and maybe only read three of them. Because when I'm holding them and start to read them, I realize, "I don't know if I really want to read this." So I just return it.
[00:07:31] ANNE: It sounds like you are perfectly comfortable sampling things to see how they fit before moving on.
TZIPI: Yes. I will often read a chapter or two and realize it's not for me. I used to be the kind of person who like, you start a book, you got to finish it. But life's too short. I want to read things that I enjoy and bring something to my life.
ANNE: Well, we want to find you books you've enjoyed today, Tzipi. I believe you've been listening to the podcast for some time. Is that accurate?
TZIPI: I heard you on one of my other favorite podcasts, Unorthodox.
ANNE: Oh, wow. Okay. That was a long time ago.
TZIPI: It was. I heard you interviewed there. That was Sara Fredman Aeder had been on your podcast. So then I went over and started listening to you. I don't know what year that was, but it's been a while.
[00:08:27] ANNE: Okay, well, thank you. And thanks, Sara. So I know you've been listening to some time and we've interacted in comments, but Tzipi, I'm so curious to hear what brings you to What Should I Read Next? at this point in your life, in your reading life?
TZIPI: I know the 250th birthday of Jane Austen just passed, and I've always wanted to be a Jane Austen completist. I've read all but two of her books, but I'm having trouble, not having trouble, but motivating myself to read the last two. And I kind of wondered, is there some way to pair her books with a more contemporary novel? I know there's a lot of retellings and reimaginings of Pride and Prejudice. I just wondered if some of her other novels have something that I can pair it with so I feel like I'm reading something contemporary to go along with the Jane Austen books.
[00:09:26] ANNE: Ooh, okay, well, I love this request. Let's talk about this for a minute now before we get into your books, if that's okay.
TZIPI: Sure.
ANNE: Okay, what's the appeal to you of being a Jane Austen completist?
TZIPI: I don't know. It's funny. The first time I read Pride and Prejudice was in high school. I'm a teacher, so I get high school reading assignments, but so much of what I read in high school, I could not stand for one reason or another. But anyway, I read Pride and Prejudice and I did not like it at all.
And I think looking back, I didn't understand that it was this tongue-in-cheek kind of thing. I took it too seriously. Like the opening line, I was like, "Oh my gosh, who are these people and...?" I don't know. And then I reread it as an adult and I just realized how funny and charming it was. She's such an icon, Jane Austen, and I really want to be knowledgeable about all of her books. And there aren't that many of them, to be honest, so it shouldn't be too hard a thing to do. Just felt like I've always wanted to do that.
[00:10:37] ANNE: Okay, well, I love that for you. And yet the motivation isn't there.
TZIPI: No, not really.
ANNE: I mean, the place my brain immediately goes to is that familiar human thing. If we could do something anytime, why would we do it right now? I'm curious if that resonates or what else might be going on here?
TZIPI: I think that's part of it. Also, I'm sometimes about the new shiny thing, like, "Oh, I want to read this book now and I want to read this book." But there's so many books, again, that people recommend or that are just coming out that I want to read those books. Maybe it's the same thing. Jane Austen is always going to be there, so I can always go back and do it any other time.
ANNE: Okay, so it's maybe opportunity cost. Like if you're spending your reading time with Jane Austen, you're not reading the new and shiny thing or the thing at the top of your stack or the thing that your mom just told you she really enjoyed.
TZIPI: Yes.
[00:11:34] ANNE: Okay, well, that's helpful to hear as we go in and think about how you might approach this little project. Do you want to reread all the books or just hit those final two?
TZIPI: The final two. And if the opportunity arises, I might reread one or two of the others.
ANNE: Understandable. What are the final two?
TZIPI: Mansfield Park and Northanger Abbey. I think I've read Sense and Sensibility twice and Pride and Prejudice probably three times at this point.
ANNE: Tzipi, I imagine that you are far from alone in those books being the last Austen’s that you get to or the ones that many readers and even Austen fans just never make their way around to.
TZIPI: Yes, I'm sure. But I'm an overachiever, Anne, so I want to do all of it. That's not an excuse for me.
[00:12:25] ANNE: Well, we can work with that. So we've got this Jane Austen project. I want to say looming in our horizon, but does that say ominous? That's just in the picture. Now, let's move on and talk about the books you enjoy, because I really like this idea, and we'll explore more, of bringing perhaps contemporary pairings to these classic novels as a way in.
TZIPI: That would be great.
ANNE: Tzipi, well, you know how this works. You've brought me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and we want to explore what works for you in your reading life. How did you choose these today?
TZIPI: I tried to choose different types of books that I enjoy for different reasons.
ANNE: Okay, I love it. What's the first book you love?
[00:13:14] TZIPI: The Teacher of Lost Orphans by M. Z. Daskal. Full disclosure, the author is a friend of mine, and I was super nervous to read this book, because she and I talk books all the time, and we don't necessarily have the same taste in books. So I was like, "I'm just a little worried. What if I don't like the book, and she's my friend, and how do I tell her that, and that kind of thing?" But I absolutely, absolutely love this book for so many reasons. It turned out okay for me.
ANNE: Well, I'm glad to hear it. I was super curious because I'd seen that it had just come out, and I didn't recognize the publisher, but what I saw from it was you enjoy a certain kind of historical novel, but tell me more.
TZIPI: Historical fiction. It's probably my go-to genre. This one is about a British internment camp in Cyprus in 1946, and Jewish Holocaust survivors who had tried to enter what was then British Mandate Palestine were stopped on their way in and diverted to this internment camp in Cyprus.
[00:14:27] First of all, this was a part of history that I kind of knew about in the back of my mind, but didn't have a lot of detail about. What I love about historical fiction is learning about a piece of history. So that was interesting. And it's not a Holocaust book, just want to put that out there, because I have some trouble with that, and I know a lot of people do too. But it is about Holocaust survivors.
ANNE: Tzipi, what was your reading experience like with this one?
TZIPI: I felt like I was there in the space with all these people and empathizing with them, and I just enjoyed learning about what that experience was like and this little piece of history. And the author's note gives all kinds of explanations about what were some true events that happened that she wrote about.
She also talks about in the author's note that her paternal grandparents were interned in a camp in Cyprus and they met and got married there. So I think that personal connection also really helped me get into the novel.
[00:15:40] ANNE: Okay. And historical fiction is one of your favorites. We're going to remember that.
TZIPI: Yes.
ANNE: Tzipi, what's the second book you love?
TZIPI: The Vanishing Act of Esme Lennox by Maggie O'Farrell. And like you, I absolutely adore Maggie O'Farrell's books. Every single one of hers is different and has a different kind of tone, and I just love that. But anyway, I guess this could also be called a historical fiction book, but that wasn't what appealed to me. What appealed to me were the family relationships and the mystery of trying to figure things out.
So this is about a young woman named Iris and she gets a phone call that her great aunt, Esme, is being released from what appears to be a mental institution after 61 years. And Iris doesn't understand this because her grandmother, Kitty, always said she was an only child.
[00:16:44] So Iris is sure this can't be true. She doesn't have a great aunt, Esme. And Iris' grandmother, Kitty, has Alzheimer's, so she can't really ask her. Iris goes to see her great aunt, and at first she's like, "I can't take this woman in. I don't know who she is." But she drops her off at some apartment house or something that is really rough and realizes she can't leave this woman there, so she brings her into her house.
And you get the story from the past Esme's telling the story, and from the present with Iris' story. I love the family dynamic of Esme and her sister, Kitty, as young children. Esme is really kind of misunderstood and treated in a way that I think is unfair to her. And there's an injustice to what happens to her. There's just a little bit of a mystery of it. And I like when I have to think when I'm reading and piece together. You get a little piece of information and then you start to think, "Huh, I wonder if this, that, and the other." And then as you read, other things unfold. You know what I mean?
ANNE: I do.
[00:18:03] TZIPI: Those are the kinds of things that often appeal to me in a novel.
ANNE: Okay, so you like piecing things together and seeing the story fall into place.
TZIPI: Yes.
ANNE: Tzipi, you know I've been in the Maggie O'Farrell space because she was on the podcast not long ago, and we launched this new completist series—you're talking about being a Jane Austen completist—on Modern Mrs. Darcy. So I was revisiting my reading experience with The Vanishing Act of Esme Lennox, but I haven't actually visited that book in some time. So it's fun to talk about it today.
TZIPI: Yeah, I can't wait for her new book to come out.
ANNE: Oh, it's good. It's good.
TZIPI: I'm sure.
ANNE: In my opinion. More to come. Tzipi, what's the third book you love?
TZIPI: The third book I love, and I chose this one because it's a demonstration of the nonfiction leadership type book that I like to read, is called 10 to 25: The Science of Motivating Young People: A Groundbreaking Approach to Leading the Next Generation—for Managers, Parents, and Educators by David Yeager.
[00:19:03] This book, as it says in the title, is about working with the younger generation. The author talks a lot about the mentor mindset and how to have a mentor mindset with young folks. I sound like an old person now, but with the younger people and how to help mentor them and guide them in the workplace, in school, things like that.
I actually love this so much that I did it as a book study with a few of the staff members who work for me. I have three teachers who are mentoring other special education teachers. And we kind of use this book as a way to discuss how to have conversations with teachers who you are mentoring and how to ask questions and probe to help them get to a different place in their instructional life and that kind of thing.
[00:20:07] ANNE: And what does a book like this bring to your reading life?
TZIPI: It enriches my professional life. I feel like when I read these books I get little nuggets of information that I can apply to my work, to my conversations with staff members or coworkers. I'm always looking to expand my skills as a leader and as an educator. I often will, like I said, read these kinds of books that are about leadership or education or something related to that.
ANNE: I'm wondering with a book study if this brings a communal element into your reading life that you don't get elsewhere, or is that... would you say more about that?
TZIPI: A hundred percent, yes. As I was reading this book the first time, I just thought, "Oh, this is great." I mean, it talks about ages 10 to 25, that's what it's geared towards, but it's really about being a mentor and having a mentor mindset. And I thought, "Well, I have these three people who are mentor teachers, let's read this together."
[00:21:15] So we broke it up into two chapters at a time and we would discuss it. "How are you applying this to your work with teacher is at this moment?" And then we come back and revisit, how's that going? And what are some new things? What are some ahas that you're getting from it? And yes, I love talking books with people and learning with people. So, yes, it definitely brought a communal aspect to it.
ANNE: That you really enjoyed.
TZIPI: Absolutely.
ANNE: I'm glad to hear that. Tzipi, now tell me about a book that wasn't a good fit for you. And I'd love to hear why. Not to your taste, timing wrong, perhaps a subject you didn't want to read about. What did you choose?
TZIPI: I chose The Sideways Life of Denny Voss by Holly Kennedy. It's funny. I put this in my submission as a book that wasn't right for me, and then I looked back, and I had rated it four stars.
ANNE: Oh, let's hear more about that.
[00:22:11] TZIPI: There were things that I loved about it, but other things where it fell flat. So it's about Denny Voss, who is a neurodivergent man. And Denny Voss is charged with murder, and he is slowly telling his story to his lawyer about what happened and what led up to being charged with murder.
As a special education director, as a special educator, just having that representation in a book, I think is important. And I really liked that about it. It's kind of an amusing book. He kidnaps his neighbor's goose and sends the goose over to Canada and things like that. So there are some funny things there.
What wasn't for me is I felt like the characters were very one-dimensional and they just lacked depth. The bad guy's the bad guy, the cousin has his thing. They were each kind of caricatures rather than multi-dimensional characters.
[00:23:23] ANNE: And does that say a lot about what you were hoping to find in those pages?
TZIPI: Yeah. And I think, to me, when I look at some of the books that I have DNF'd or put down, sometimes it is about, oh, the character just seems like plain or superficial maybe is the better way to put it. I want to read about a character who, again, has some depth to them and not just, oh, here's the flighty girl and here's the serious person and here's the 100% bad guy kind of thing.
ANNE: Tzipi, what else have you been reading lately?
TZIPI: I have been on a great reading streak recently.
ANNE: Love to hear that.
[00:24:11] TZIPI: Yes, it is very good. So Wild Dark Shore was great. The characters there were very complex. There are good people who do bad things and bad people who are not necessarily 100% bad. So I love that. I loved the description of the setting, the island they're on and the wildlife there. So all of that kind of came together in that book.
I am currently rereading The Midnight Library by Matt Haig, which is a book that I absolutely loved. And I understand he's coming out with kind of a... I don't know if it's a sequel or sort of in the same vein. So I was like, "I'm going to read The Midnight Library before the next book comes out."
ANNE: So you'll be ready?
TZIPI: Yes, exactly. I want it to be fresh in my mind. I also just read Confessions of a Grammar Queen by Eliza Knight.
ANNE: I've heard good things about that.
[00:25:05] TZIPI: Yes, it was so cute. It was a little bit like Lessons in Chemistry in that there's a woman in... this one I think was in the... I can't remember, 60s or 70s, in the publishing industry, which is male-dominated and she's determined to break in and kind of the workplace discrimination that she has, but then gets past... you know, the way she gets around it, there's female community that she builds for herself. And it's in the publishing industry. And so, you know, books about books, I mean, what could be better than that? So that was fun.
ANNE: Noted.
TZIPI: Yeah, yes.
ANNE: And right now we are looking for books to nudge you along on your Jane Austen project. Is that right?
TZIPI: Yes, that'd be great.
ANNE: Okay. So tell me more about what you think a pairing situation might bring to your completist adventure.
TZIPI: I feel like having some kind of pairing will enrich the experience of reading the Jane Austen book. Not that it needs enriching. But if there is something that is contemporary that can go along with it, first of all, it might be more motivating to read the Jane Austen book, but also, you know, so much of what's in Jane Austen is applicable to life today. And I just like the idea of finding a companion for the books.
[00:26:37] ANNE: Okay. This is just we're having coffee talking about books. This is not literature exam.
TZIPI: Okay.
ANNE: What is it you like about Jane Austen's style, or the feelings her novels give you, or what your reading experience is like? Take your pick. But I'm interested to hear what is it that draws you in and what are you looking for more of?
TZIPI: I'm always interested in reading books with strong female protagonists. I went to Barnard College, which is a women's college. So I want to read about powerful women. I want to read about women who are empowered, women who lean on other women, that kind of thing. I mean, I don't only read about women, but that is definitely, again, an appeal to me. And I guess if you look through the books that I mentioned today, they probably all center around a woman or women.
[00:27:35] So that appeals to me about Jane Austen. She always has these women who know what they want and are outspoken and sometimes have to get around the rules of society to get what they want. That is something that is appealing to me.
ANNE: Okay. Cards on the table. I know what I hope you're going to say, but what are they going to bring to you as a reader? Are you looking for a fun, fresh, modern spin? Are you looking to better appreciate what Jane Austen did? Are you just looking for some kind of more enriched...? I mean, you like depth and nuance and strong characterization that's not black and white. I wonder if you're looking for a way to see more facets of the Jane Austen experience.
TZIPI: Can I say all of the above?
ANNE: Yeah.
TZIPI: Yeah. Yes, yes. Any and all of those work for me.
ANNE: I love it. Let's do this.
TZIPI: Okay.
[00:28:36] ANNE: Tzipi, the books you loved were The Teacher of Lost Orphans by M.Z. Daskal, The Vanishing Act of Esme Lennox by Maggie O'Farrell, and 10 to 25: The Science of Motivating Young People by David Yeager. Not for you, The Sideways Life of Denny Voss. And from that, we learned you really like rich characterization, characters that aren't black and white, but that show up in their full humanity. And you see that on the page and it makes for a more interesting textured story for you. And I just added a bunch of words to yours, but does that sound good?
TZIPI: Yes. I'm like, well, you said it much more eloquently than I did. Thank you, Anne.
ANNE: It's teamwork here. So lately you've been reading Wild Dark Shore by Charlotte McConaughey, Midnight Library by Matt Haig, and Confessions of a Grammar Queen by Eliza Knight. And we are looking for books to illuminate your Jane Austen experience. And I'm especially keeping in mind that you haven't yet read Mansfield Park and Northanger Abbey. Which if I had to rank the most read to least read, I think I'd start at the top with Pride and Prejudice and I'd put Mansfield Park at the bottom and Northanger Abbey right above it. So I think you're in good company.
[00:29:45] And we know we're talking to all those Jane Austen aspiring completists who are in your shoes or somewhere similar. But I want to start with a non-Jane Austen pick. Can we do that?
TZIPI: Sure.
ANNE: So I told you that I have had Jane Austen on the brain. No, that is very true. I've had Jane Austen on the brain for a long time, but The Vanishing Act of Esme Lennox is what I meant to say, talking to Maggie O'Farrell, writing my completist post for Modern Mrs. Darcy, talking with you today.
And there's a book that I think more readers would want to know about, especially because I read in blog comments that a lot of readers really felt strongly about Esme Lennox. They love so much about that story, the historical nature of it, but also what it illuminated about actual history that Maggie O'Farrell was drawing from there.
[00:30:31] And there's an author named Ann Leary, who I believe hasn't had a book more recent than her memoir essay collection she put out a couple of Mays ago. She wrote The Good House that was published in 2013 that I know I've talked about several times on the podcast. But I've never talked about her more recent novel, The Foundling. Is this one you know?
TZIPI: No, I don't.
ANNE: Well, this is not a read-alike to The Vanishing Act of Esme Lennox, but it is a book that has a similar historical backdrop. And it does feature those strong female protagonists, powerful women who are or become empowered over the course of the story. But we also meet some real villains, and it's not just the men in the pages of this book. So I think you're going to find the nuanced, realistic characterization you're looking for here, if this sounds promising to you.
[00:31:24] This story is set in 1927 at a fictional institution modeled after a real one. It's called the Nettleton State Village for Feebleminded Women of Childbearing Age. And what this institution does, and this may sound familiar having read Esme Lennox, is it removes unfit women from society during their childbearing years so that they cannot give birth to similarly unfit children. And Ann Leary's inspiration here was personal. Her grandmother worked at such an institution for a time.
Our narrator is this 18-year-old, fresh-faced girl who needs a job. And she goes to work at Nettleton, and she just thinks her boss hung the moon. Her boss is a female physician, back before that was common. She's a suffragist. She's a pillar of the community. And also, Mary slowly comes to see what her unapologetic advocacy of eugenics looks like in practice.
[00:32:25] And she gets more and more... well, at first, she wholeheartedly believes in Nettleton's mission because she believes in the woman behind it. But then she finds out somebody she used to know who was bright and kind and smart has been institutionalized because her husband wanted to marry somebody else.
So this prompts a crisis for our 18-year-old protagonist. But she's not the woman with the power, at least not at this point in the book, dun-dun-dun. But she's got to do something.
This feels like it might be a good fit for you. Also, never not timely, interesting, illuminates, especially to those who haven't read something like Esme Lennox, an unknown but really important chapter in history. How does that sound?
TZIPI: Well, it sounds haunting, but it sounds amazing. That sounds right up my alley.
ANNE: Thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about that here. Now, I wonder if going into your Jane Austen adventure, you might be interested in reading something completely different that may make you look at Jane Austen's prose differently.
[00:33:32] TZIPI: That sounds very intriguing.
ANNE: I'm wondering if you've read Eleanor Catton, specifically Birnam Wood.
TZIPI: No.
ANNE: Birnam Wood came out a few years back. This is like an eco-thriller meets Shakespearean tragedy. This is definitely what I would call a compulsively readable literary mystery thriller. What I want to tell you about this is before Eleanor Catton wrote Birnam Wood, she wrote The Luminaries, and she won the Booker for it. And then she felt a whole lot of pressure and needed a break. And she became the screenwriter for the adaptation of Emma that came out in 2020.
TZIPI: Oh, okay.
ANNE: So she said in order to write the screenplay, she immersed herself in the world of Jane Austen. And Eleanor Catton's reflections on what it meant to immerse herself in that prose and what she learned and what Jane Austen does specifically differently from other writers and what she was pioneering in, I mean, sure. Like I was an English student, not an English major, but an English student for a long time and a big nerd, and I know about Jane Austen and pioneering and what she did and free indirect discourse. But listening to Eleanor Catton talk about how Jane Austen moves the plot forward with every observation that happens in someone's mind, even if there's 12 of them back-to-back in one paragraph, blew my little mind.
[00:35:01] And she even said just very simple things like, "Jane Austen, she doesn't use metaphor. Hardly ever." And I read that and was like, what? Do you know how many times I've been through Jane Austen's novels? Probably in some like 30, 40 and I never recognized that pattern. I thought it was so interesting.
So Eleanor Catton said that she brought that Jane Austen prose sensibility to Birnam Wood. I don't know what order you want to do this in, you've already read a bunch of Jane Austen, but I think it could be really interesting to read this totally different book like an eco-thriller, knowing how much Jane Austen inspired this.
TZIPI: Yeah.
ANNE: If that sounds good... so Birnam Wood absolutely takes its title from Shakespeare, from this Scottish play. And it's this idealistic activist group that is focused on guerrilla gardening efforts in New Zealand. They want to do good, change the world. They have been involved in decidedly low-stakes local endeavors. But then their leader, who's an idealist, but also a pragmatist, oh, also a powerful young woman, or maybe a young woman who wants power, not quite the same thing, she crosses paths with a downright sinister American billionaire. And he persuades her to enter into... I mean, it almost feels like a deal with the devil in the end, but unlikely. But he pitches her a mutually beneficial partnership pertaining to land adjoining a national park. And the national park in the book is fictional, but it's very much modeled on an actual national park in New Zealand.
[00:36:40] But neither party is willing to acknowledge what they really want. And it is a high-stakes, action-packed, edge-of-your-seat tale about billionaires and their egos, privacy concerns, politics, environmental rights, cutthroat, willing to do anything for the cause, human nature, very much modeled on Macbeth.
I think, gosh, and I feel like such a nerd saying this and that it sounds super boring, but just watching the way she ticks the story forward with the details she tells you about the characters and what they're thinking about each other from like tick to tick in the book, I think could be really interesting unless this is sounding like a real yawner. What do you think?
TZIPI: No, it sounds interesting.
ANNE: I'm also going to send you and link an interview that Eleanor Catton did, I think when Birnam Wood came out where she talked about Jane Austen as an influence. Even if you don't read Birnam Wood, I think just reading this little piece will perhaps change the way you read Jane Austen. But after reading it, I wanted to pick up my copy of Emma because it was the one that was closest right away and be like, okay, let me see what she's talking about. How did I not see this before?
[00:37:55] TZIPI: That sounds very interesting. And yes, I'd love to read that interview.
ANNE: I'll send it and readers, we will link it. But we also know that you have not yet read Northanger Abbey and Mansfield Park. You know what we didn't talk about, Tzipi, was what you said in your submission about how you tend to gravitate towards the same sorts of books, which you described as quiet books about found family and relationships, but want to read outside your typical comfort zone a little bit. Could you say more about that?
TZIPI: I read a lot of historical fiction. Well, it's like I said, I gravitate to those books. When I hear someone describe a book that sounds like a found family, family relationships, family dynamics, those are the types of things that I gravitate to and that I feel emotionally like, "Oh, yeah, I know I'm going to love that. I want to read that." And I still want to read those. But I would like to try on some new feelings in my books and see how I do with them. I love a little bit of magical realism or magical elements also. I'd like to try to expand the types of books that I read.
[00:39:10] ANNE: How are we doing so far? So The Foundling sounds squarely in your lane. And we talked about Birnam Wood, like a literary mystery. Well, we'll see what else we have with Northanger Abbey and Mansfield Park potential pairings. I feel like the one that is top of mind for me with Mansfield Park is obvious because we had its author on the podcast. That's Nikki May in This Motherless Land. Is this a book you're familiar with?
TZIPI: I've heard of it. I haven't read it.
ANNE: I think this could be a really excellent pick for you because it is a Mansfield Park, not retelling exactly, but a reimagining that's based heavily on Nikki May's own experience as a British Nigerian woman. And I'm a sucker for any Jane Austen adaptation. Even when they're not very good, I still really enjoyed the puzzle aspect of seeing how the author chose to update or cast aside or reimagine the specific qualities, characters, plot beats of the book.
[00:40:13] So I was curious because of all the books you could adapt, why Mansfield Park? And I thought her answer for this one was really good. And it's basically that it is a platonic love story. It's the story of two cousins who were brought up as sisters. So I think you could make an argument to some degree for this being a sister story.
But she really liked the idea of layering a contemporary tale on top of that Jane Austen framework. And she definitely writes in a space that is not your most tried common ground. I don't know if you've read her debut, Wahala, but she is the author of that book, which is about a group of four female friends who get into all sorts of trouble in contemporary London.
So her update feels a little historical in places. It runs from the late 1970s to the late 1990s. For those readers who still have the afterglow of the Olympics upon them, there's a pivotal scene that happens at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics that's lots of fun. The plot moves back and forth between Lagos and the UK. And it is, like Jane Austen, devastating to hear what happens to people in some places.
[00:41:31] And as in Mansfield Park, it begins with a tragedy. Like a young girl is orphaned to set up the rest of the plot. But it's also, like Jane Austen, really, really funny. So I mean, well, like so much of Jane Austen, this is coming of age, but also scathing social commentary. And you also get a love story of sorts. Although, the love story that's really in the limelight here is about a life-defining, almost lifelong first cousin friendship, not a Darcy and Elizabeth or, you know, Fanny and Edward kind of situation.
And you do not need to have read Jane Austen or Mansfield Park to appreciate this. So whether you want to read it before or after, I think you'd be all good. How does that sound?
TZIPI: That sounds great. I love the sibling-cousin part of it, yeah, that family connection.
[00:42:25] ANNE: I am glad to hear it. And then I'm so intrigued by the idea that the author, Anne Tyler, is not a Jane Austen reader-like, but definitely standing firmly in her legacy for the way she writes about relationships in substance and really in tone. I don't know how much Anne Tyler you've read, but I'm hoping The Beginner's Goodbye is new to you, because I think we could enjoy some of that sensibility.
And it's a little bit of a ghost story that doesn't feel... I mean, The Beginner's Goodbye is not a gothic, but I really like it as a companion to Northanger Abbey, not because of any great similarities to the plot, but in the way a devastating life event, a man's wife dies, leads to a coming-into-middle-age kind of reawakening with the help of his wife's ghost and with the books he is reading and making constantly informing how he's moving forward. Do you have any experience with this one?
[00:43:28] TZIPI: No, I'm a huge Anne Tyler fan, but I have not read this one, and it sounds very intriguing already.
ANNE: Well, I love the idea of you picking this up. So it's one of her... well, I guess this is a mid-career work, and it's on the short side of her works, as is Northanger Abbey for Jane Austen. Right from the very beginning, our protagonist tells us that the strangest thing about his wife's coming back from the dead was how other people reacted when they saw her. So right off the bat, you're like, "Anne Tyler, what?"
So what we find out is that a man's wife died in a tragic and strange and random and deeply unsettling accident in his home. And over the course of this novel, he is finally able, with the help of her reappearance, and not conversations exactly, but just the presence she brings into the story, he is finally able to take a clear-eyed look at what their relationship was actually like. Because it wasn't quite the story he was telling himself, and it definitely wasn't the way that he wanted it to be.
[00:44:38] And so he's reexamining key scenes from their unconventional relationship and ultimately coming to terms with what was wrong and painful about their marriage, but also what was really good about it. And as Jane Austen is, this is quirky. I don't know how gentle Jane Austen is. She's not snarky, but she can be quite sharp. And this does have a wistful kind of tone that Jane Austen only allows certain characters to indulge in. It doesn't characterize her work as a whole.
So this is a sad story, but it's got like that quirky, upbeat feel to it. And it is also definitely a story about love and forgiveness. But you said there's nothing better than a book about books?
TZIPI: Yes.
ANNE: The details of this one are so fun. The main character of this book is the, I believe, owner of a small vanity publisher in Baltimore. And his workplace stories were hilarious. People who want to be published authors but couldn't necessarily like sending a submission to Simon & Schuster come to him and pay him money so they can have a book that they can show their friends.
[00:45:48] And the office, like the water cooler conversations about bringing these books to life and working with the clients are so funny. The book is called The Beginner's Goodbye. And you learn that it's called that because a long-running series of The Beginner's Guide to Homebuying, The Beginner's Guide to Marriage, The Beginner's Guide to Cooking—I'm pulling those titles out of the air, although I do think the homebuying one was real—keeps the lights on and has for a long time at the publisher. And so he's constantly reflecting on the titles he's working on in the beginner series and what sold well and what is needed and what people are looking for when they're seeking to pick up these books. That's The Beginner's Goodbye. How does that sound?
TZIPI: That sounds amazing. I really love Anne Tyler and love a book about books and the whole ghost story thing sounds appealing.
[00:46:43] ANNE: Okay, I'm glad to hear it. Tzipi, there are all kinds of contemporary books, including some that will be new and shiny and on your local bookstore and library shelves very, very soon. So I think if you wanted to indulge your new and shiny inclination and also keep rolling in your Jane Austen project, that could really go together for you this spring and summer.
TZIPI: Oh, great. That sounds fabulous.
ANNE: We'll say a little more about that at a later date. But for now, I think this is a good place to land.
TZIPI: Okay.
ANNE: So how are you feeling about these? We talked about The Foundling by Ann Leary, Birnam Wood by Eleanor Catton, and that article I will send you, we talked about This Motherless Land by Nikki May, and then The Beginner's Goodbye by Anne Tyler. Tzipi, what are you thinking about what's next for your reading life from those titles? And I'd love to hear what you're thinking, how you might fit it in.
[00:47:40] TZIPI: I mean, they all sound amazing. I would say Birnam Wood and This Motherless Land are probably two that are a little more outside my comfort zone or my usual reads. And I definitely want to get to those. I know I said I wanted to change things up for myself. But I think I'm going to start with one of the Anns.
ANNE: We did talk about two Anns, didn't we?
TZIPI: Yes. I mean, I wrote it down. So I'm like, "Oh, Ann Leary, Anne Tyler. I think I'm going to start with The Beginner's Goodbye. I'm just really intrigued by the whole ghost story part of it. And maybe I will read Northanger Abbey before or after, I'm not sure. But try to pair those two together a little bit.
ANNE: Well, I can't wait to hear what you think. Tzipi, it's been a pleasure. Thanks so much for talking books with me today.
TZIPI: Thank you, Anne. This has been great.
[00:48:31] ANNE: Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Tzipi today, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next.
Find the full list of titles we talked about at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.
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