[00:00:00] MARY POGUE: I'm calling it the Read USA Challenge. And when I was talking to my dad about it, he's like, "So are you going to count it as just physical books, audiobooks? What are you going to do?"
ANNE BOGEL: Not your dad's first conversation about books with you.
Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.
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Now, readers, we hear about all different kinds of reading challenges around here, and today's guest is seeking titles for just such a project. Mary Pogue lives in St. Louis with her family, where she enjoys her work as a digital marketing strategist and her hobbies like coaching field hockey, traveling, and of course, reading.
[00:02:38] This year, Mary's embarking on a challenge she is calling Read the USA. It's the 250th anniversary around here, so Mary has set a goal to read a book set in or written by an author from every U.S. state. While Mary has made great progress already at this point in the year, she is hoping for my help in picking books for a handful of states she has yet to visit, either in person or on the page, and is having a hard time turning up options for.
Mary would be thrilled if these books could do double duty. She especially enjoys learning about each state's history and culture through works of historical fiction, and she has a preference for titles she'll find at her local library. But as you'll hear, Mary is open to all kinds of options, so we are going to see what we can turn up for her today.
We're going to tackle her list of outstanding states and discover titles she might want to add to this reading road trip. Let's get to it.
Mary, welcome to the show.
MARY: Thanks, Anne. I'm really excited to be here. Happy to be on.
[00:03:37] ANNE: Oh, I'm so excited to talk books with you today. I know a lot of readers are of a similar mind and contemplating similar projects to what you've been cooking up, and I'm excited to talk about it today.
MARY: Yeah, me too.
ANNE: But in all the specificity of your reading life.
MARY: Yes.
ANNE: Mary, we want to give our readers a glimpse of who you are. Can you start by telling me a little about yourself?
MARY: I live in St. Louis, Missouri. I have a husband of about five years. We will be five years married in December this year. We have an eight-month-old daughter, so I'm a new mom, and I love every minute of it.
I have been a reader ever since I was born. My mom tells me this all the time. She says, "You were the oldest of four kids. There were just times where I needed to put you off to the side with a good book, and you would distract yourself for hours." That is where I originally fell in love with reading.
[00:04:33] Then my dad would always read us the classic books of Charlotte's Web, The Chronicles of Narnia, and that's where I really fell in love with reading. But outside of reading, I am a field hockey coach. Oh my gosh, I've coached all ages from 3 to 18 ever since graduating from college at Bellarmine University, so a fellow fan of Louisville over here.
ANNE: Yep. It's a D1 school, but it's a small liberal arts college that's not too far from me.
MARY: Actually, back when I was there, I played field hockey there. It was Division II back then, so it made the transition right when I left. But it's also where I met my husband. Ironically, we both grew up in St. Louis, and he and I didn't know each other until we got there. So I always find that a fun story to share with people.
ANNE: St. Louis is a big place.
MARY: It is. Same with Louisville, too. It's like a big city, small town vibe, but you feel like you walk around and you know someone wherever you go whenever you're here, so it's always fun.
[00:05:37] ANNE: My impression from afar is that St. Louis has a lovely reading community.
MARY: Oh my gosh, yes. And I will give a huge shout out to The Novel Neighbor, which is my favorite store that I visit, if not weekly, then at least a couple times a month. But we also have a very vibrant library community and tons of author events that I frequent because, I mean, people just, whether it's The Novel Neighbor, Left Bank Books, some of our other bookstores here, and our library system, they just bring some great authors to town, and it's amazing.
ANNE: Yes, I get some of those emails telling me everything I'm missing in St. Louis. But it seems like people come see you and your community turns out.
MARY: Yes, especially for some of our romance authors, we get huge crowds for those. It's very fun.
ANNE: Mary, I believe you've been listening for a long time, and I'm curious to hear what made you think now was the time? What brings you to What Should I Read Next? right now?
MARY: I've been listening to the show since, I believe, 2018.
ANNE: Oh, wow, thank you.
[00:06:35] MARY: When I graduated college back then, I was like, "I just need to get back into reading," because everybody goes through this time in their life where they have a stint where they're reading, but maybe not reading as much. And that was my time where I wasn't reading as much.
When I left school and was going to come back home, I was like, "I want to get back into reading," so I just started Googling podcasts and I found What Should I Read Next?, and I've been a fan ever since. Then from there, I got into the world of Bookstagram. I created a Bookstagram account not long after that, and it's called Show Me Reads. I honestly thank whoever in the ether gave me this name because Missouri is called the Show Me State. When I Googled name options for my Bookstagram, Show Me Reads was available, and I was like, "Well, this is a match made in heaven. That is going to be my Bookstagram name." And it has been my name for almost 10 years now, which is crazy.
[00:07:33] ANNE: Gosh, I feel really old when I say things like, "Where does the time go?" But seriously.
MARY: It does. But yeah, I looked back at some of my old photos, I'm like, "Wow, the Bookstagram community has come a long way," but also, holy cow, I've gotten so many good book recommendations from the community, whether it's just posts from people locally, bookstores that have shared so many wonderful things. It's a great place to be, and it's somewhere that I found a lot of books that I would not have read otherwise, either from Bookstagram or even your show. There are some books that I've found over the years, one of them being Julie Berry's book, Lovely War, which I'm looking at, and I didn't put as one of my recommended books, but it was one I discovered on the podcast and adored. It was such a good book.
ANNE: I'm so glad to hear it. So after listening for all these years, I'm not sure if you ever thought about sending in a submission to maybe come on yourself, but what gave you the nudge to make you think spring 2026 was the time?
[00:08:31] MARY: So I was talking to my dad in December about, with my reading life, I really wanted to do something different. I've been reading books for a number of goal for many years. You're 50, you're 75, whatever have you. But this year, I was like, with being a new mom and having a totally different schedule, I wanted to give myself a different type of challenge.
So we were talking about some things and I landed on, "Oh my goodness, it's America's 250th birthday this year. What if I did something around that?" And I came up with this challenge of reading a book set or written by an author in all 50 states and I wanted to complete it by the end of this year. So I'm calling it the Read USA Challenge. And when I was talking to my dad about it, he's like, "So are you going to count it as just physical books, audiobooks? What are you going to do?"
ANNE: Not your dad's first conversation about books with you.
[00:09:30] MARY: Yeah. I was like, I want to do all the things because I have a long commute to work on Tuesdays and Thursdays. And I was like, "Well, I might as well have audiobooks as an option too." And I am a big audiobook listener. So that's where I landed. And I was like, "You know, this is a good challenge that I feel like some people would enjoy. Why don't I put in a submission form?" And then I was blown away when y'all emailed me back. I was very excited to be a part of the show.
ANNE: It's fun to send those emails and have you be excited when you receive them. But I'd love to hear more about this challenge. Does this feel very much of a piece with your reading life thus far? Or is this a change in direction?
MARY: I would say it's definitely a part of my reading life because I read a lot of historical fiction books. This kind of fits in that vein of, okay, I can read more about U.S. history because I am a big fan of the World War II books, the Royal Family books and history about them. But I was like, "I need to read more about our own country."
[00:10:30] So this is what made me dive into this challenge. The whole premise of it is I have to complete it within this year for sure, because it's America's birthday and it's a big celebration. And I've seen the logo for 250 everywhere. So I was like, "It has to be this year. It has to be 50 books for 50 states."
That means that I need to have one book per state. It can either be set in that state. So if it's a fiction book, if it's set in Connecticut, or if it's set in New Mexico, then I can read it. But it can also be if the author was born or lives in that state currently, then I could also read it and count it towards the state challenge.
ANNE: Okay. Is there any double-dipping here? Or definitely 50 books?
MARY: Definitely 50 books. And then I will read some other books outside of that. So I'm not strictly just doing this challenge the whole year, because I'm a type of person that likes to mood read. So I'll kind of go where the flow takes me.
[00:11:35] But I have this goal of 50 books, because I was like, "I know I can read more than 50. I'm a fast reader. But if I'm going to do this challenge, I want to make sure that I have a set goal of accomplishing one from each state." So that's where I landed. And I'm really excited about it. And so far, I believe I've done eight states. So I haven't gotten too far.
ANNE: Mary, how big is the appeal for the researching and dreaming about what you might be able to read? Is that grunt work or is that part of the enjoyment of a project like this? And I'd love to hear how you're going about it.
MARY: It's kind of part of the enjoyment. A part of it is I've been asking family members and friends of, "Hey, have you ever read a book set in XYZ state? Like I'm having a hard time finding one," or "Hey, I know there's a lot of books set in New York City and New York, all those places. What's one that you've heard of that maybe is a little different that I could pick up?"
[00:12:33] That's kind of been the fun part about it is I've been asking a lot of people for recommendations. But there are some states, and I know I said this in my submission form, that are very hard to find. So I am open to exploring and seeing what books fall in my lap to complete the challenge.
ANNE: And I believe what's happening today is you sent us an email that said, "These are the states I'm struggling with."
MARY: Yes, I did.
ANNE: Okay. Well, I'm excited to get into those because I have ideas.
MARY: Oh, good.
ANNE: Mary, we're going to talk about the books you love and don't, thinking about what kind of recommendations may be interesting and useful, and not only like tick your boxes, but also really bring you readerly satisfaction in this challenge. So that's where we're headed.
What else do you want me to know about our challenge? I just made it our challenge. I'm not reading 50 books for 50 states this year, but I love the idea. But what else do you want me to know with that end goal in mind? And also, what else do you think our readers would want to hear?
[00:13:34] Because if there's one thing, I mean, there's lots of things I've learned from What Should I Read Next?, but oh, our listeners love getting into the nitty gritty details, requirements, goals, ambitions, specifics of a reading challenge.
MARY: Yes. So if there's anything else more to know about this reading challenge, the cool thing is, and I'm looking at it in my office right now, but I have a scratch off state map.
ANNE: Oh, that's fun.
MARY: So, in there, I'm kind of looking to see, okay, there's a bunch of states I've been to, but where haven't I traveled yet/where do I want to go to in my mind? So that's kind of a part of this challenge is, where can I armchair travel? And where can I be inspired to go in the future? Because eventually I would love to check off all 50 states, but at this current time, I can't get to all 50 states. So this is my way of getting to all 50 within the birthday year so I can say, "Oh, I've kind of really dug into each nuance of each state."
[00:14:33] Another couple of things to know about this challenge is I love history. So something that I've been trying to find is historical fiction books within this challenge. So I haven't read a lot of history about the Civil War or the Revolutionary War or things of that nature since like high school. Those things used to fascinate me then, and they still do now, but I just haven't dove into those things as of late.
But I also have picked up books over the past year about things like the Dust Bowl, or gosh, I read one recently set in San Francisco about the big earthquake there in the 1910s. Things like that really interests me of things that have shaped our country in the past.
And that was also something that kind of got me excited for this challenge was, what are things that I can read about our history that either I don't know, I don't know enough about, or things that I can really learn about how our country came to be?
[00:15:32] So that got me really excited for this challenge. It's been a good topic of discussion with my family and my dad's a big reader as well. He reads a lot of different nonfiction books and fiction books from time to time, but he's been able to give me some good recommendations that I would not have been able to think of either.
ANNE: Thanks, Dad. Okay, so with you loving history and historical fiction, and having history lovers in your life and reading life, which is so nice, you get to both indulge your current interests and also systematically uncover topics you haven't yet discovered or don't know much about.
MARY: Mm-hmm.
ANNE: All right, that sounds fun. All right, Mary, if you're ready, let's talk about the books you love and don't and what you've been reading lately. Then I'll get the specifics on that reading challenge before we try to turn up some recommendations for those states you haven't yet really identified titles you're excited about reading for.
MARY: That sounds great.
ANNE: You know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one you don't, and what you've been reading lately. How did you decide what books you were going to bring to the show today?
[00:16:36] MARY: When I was looking at my books, ironically, not many of them are set in the United States. But I was thinking, what vibes do these books bring me that made me excited and also made me think about them for many, many years? So the first book that I have is The Huntress by Kate Quinn.
This one is a multi-POV story of three characters whose lives collide in search of a Nazi war criminal who is called The Huntress. This whole story was so well-crafted and woven together, I could not put it down because I just could not figure out who The Huntress was. And I knew it was someone within the world of these three people.
This story features a female Russian bomber pilot whose name is Nina, a young Boston woman whose father has a mysterious fiancé who has come into their lives and she just has some suspicions about her. Throughout this whole thing, you get a bit of dips into World War II. You get some dips into modern-day Boston.
[00:17:51] It's just so interesting how the story evolved and grew. I think about it all the time. I just could not put it down. Kate Quinn is an author that I have read pretty much every single one of her historical fiction books. This year she has a historical fantasy out called The Astral Library that I have not read yet, but it is on my shelf and I'm staring at it right now. So that is something that I will be picking up because this book I loved and adored so much.
ANNE: I read this book many years ago when it first came out, and I still remember just how breathtaking the... I mean, it was probably like the final 30%, but just like that race to discover and characters are in peril and you don't know who's safe and who's not. It's exciting.
MARY: Yeah, it kept me in a throes for days. I sat back in my chair and I was just like, "Why did this book have to end? It was just so good."
[00:18:50] ANNE: That's a nice way to feel.
MARY: It was the first one I found of hers. From there, I ended up reading The Alice Network, The Briar Club, The Rose Code. And ever since reading this book, I have pegged her Instagram and check it all the time to be like, "When's your next one coming out?" Because you know I will read it.
ANNE: It's waiting for you. I definitely noticed that you said you chose books that not only have stuck with you, but have stuck with you for years. So that's a high bar. It's good to hear which ones surpassed it for you. I'm noticing that that is a thing. Well, that's said a little bit in the U.S., but a little bit decidedly not.
MARY: It's a little bit in the US. It says Boston, but I would say most of the story takes place abroad. But it was fun when I was reading the Boston scenes. It was pretty cool being like, I think she lives in a brownstone. So that whole vibe of, I know Boston is known for its beautiful brownstones. I've never been to Boston, but I think I am going this summer because my brother lives in Providence. So I think I'm going to be doing a Boston, Providence, and Newport, Rhode Island road trip with my husband and daughter. So that's exciting.
[00:20:00] But besides the point, I think that this one does scratch the itch a little bit of this challenge in terms of it's set in Boston for part of it. And with this challenge too, the books don't have to be completely set in that city the whole time. It can go from different cities, but if it has multiple cities or multiple states, I have to pick one.
ANNE: And I imagine that you're wanting to choose the primary one, not one where just a chapter was set in Nevada, for example.
MARY: Yes. So let's say it's set in both New York City and Los Angeles because it's about, I don't know, somebody in theater or movies, I would have to pick whichever one is set in it the most.
ANNE: Okay. We like to understand the rules. Thank you very much. Mary, what's the second book you love?
MARY: The Secret Book of Flora Lea by Patti Callahan Henry. She is also an auto-buy author for me because... I'll sidetrack a little bit. I read the Once Upon a Wardrobe book first, which is also a favorite of mine, but I wanted to talk about The Secret Book of Flora Lea just based on the setting and the story.
[00:21:04] But when I discovered that initial book of Once Upon a Wardrobe, it moved me to tears. It was such a wonderful book. And I was like, "I need to read more of this author." And this book came out, I believe it was, I want to say at least four years ago, because I know her current one came out last year, which is also a wonderful book.
But this book in particular is set also during World War II. So there's a little bit of a theme here, at least with these first two books. But it was particularly about the Pied Piper Operation. There was this girl who had a little sister and they both were taken out of London to be safe during the bombings. And they lived in this wonderful little town. But then eventually the little sister disappears, and the older sister has not been able to find her for 20 years.
[00:21:55] When they were leaving London, there was a story that the older sister, Hazel, would tell her younger sister of... it's like a fantasy magical story. And it's only something that they knew between the two sisters. 20 years later, Hazel discovers this story is out in the world in the form of a book, and she's like, "Maybe my sister is alive."
So it goes in a whole journey of kinda like a literary mystery in a way of tracking down the sister, finding out, is she alive, is she not? How did the story come out into the world that only those two knew? And it was so beautiful. Absolutely wonderful story.
I will give no spoilers because I hope that everyone reads this book. It is absolutely wonderful. And I know it got picked up by Good Morning America, I think in a couple other places, just because of how great the story was and how gripping and how much it really touched a lot of people's lives. So I adored it. And it's one that I also have on my favorite shelf in my office.
[00:23:00] ANNE: That sounds like it'd be fun to peruse. Mary, what's the third book you love?
MARY: The third book I love is a little bit of a diversion in the way that it's still history, but this one is actually an American story. It is a nonfiction that reads like fiction, which is something that I really gravitate towards. And it's The Library Book by Susan Orlean.
This is set at the Los Angeles Public Library when it had a very, very huge fire that they still, I believe to this day, cannot figure out who set it on fire. It was a wonderful dive into not only true crime about this event in American history that I had no idea about, but it also was a deep dive into the library system, how books are cataloged, all those kinds of things that scratch the itch in my brain of a book lover's dream.
It's another book that I always think about, how did something like this happen? It's almost a journalism story in a way because I did major in communications and journalism in school. So for me, it was like reading a really in-depth newspaper article. And I just loved it.
[00:24:10] ANNE: Okay. So that would be a perk for you?
MARY: Yes.
ANNE: Well, I like something a little bit offbeat that... I mean, not completely different from the others. I mean, it lets us see a different facet of your reading life.
MARY: Yeah. And it kind of ties back into what the challenge I'm looking... I would say I'm looking more for history of America in some ways, but if there's a really good fiction book that's kind of fun and set in a... I will say, if it is set in a state, but a fictional town, it still counts. I'm trying to think of the book. Like the Rome, Kentucky series that Sarah Adams writes, that still would count because it's set in Kentucky, if that makes sense.
ANNE: Is it though? I don't know. I mean, I love those, but if I thought that place was real, I'd be there so fast.
MARY: Yeah, it would, but...
ANNE: Okay. But for your purposes, it totally counts.
MARY: It does. Yes.
ANNE: And we know that... I mean, I'm thinking of Wendell Berry, who has this whole world of novels set in Port William, Kentucky, which is fictional, but is also like Carrollton.
MARY: Yeah.
[00:25:12] ANNE: Okay. Well, that's good to know. Mary, tell us about a book that was not right for you. And I'd love to hear why. Was it not a good fit? Did you not think it was well done? Was the timing wrong? Was it not about a topic that you gravitate toward?
MARY: So this was a really good question. I know it's hard for a lot of people. Whenever I've listened to the podcast, it's something that people are like, "Oh, it's so hard to do this." Or sometimes it's not. But for me, it was harder. And I had to do some thinking because I kind of focused what I didn't like on a book that is set in a state, but it just didn't do it for me in some ways.
So I picked the book Main Characters by Hannah Orenstein. It was a beautiful cover. And that's what initially gravitated me towards it. And it was set in Maine. So I was like, "Oh, this is like a place I've always wanted to go to. Let's give this a try."
[00:26:03] The premise of the book is that it's a sister story kind of akin to The Parent Trap in the way that the two sisters know nothing about each other. They both have the same dad and they're sisters, but they're not twins. So I was like, "Okay, this is kind of interesting. Let's give it a go."
The whole premise of the book centers around a lake house and the daughters each get one week a year with their dad at this lake house, but they're not the same week. So they never met each other. And I go into this book and I was like... the beginning of it was pretty good. And then I got about halfway through and I just, I couldn't really get in with the character development. And I think that's what really got me. The setting was good, but it could have been better for me.
So I think that's where it kind of lost a bit of traction for me. But also it could have very well been because I did that one on audio. So maybe it just didn't hit as well for me. Or I am wondering too, and this is something I think I learned with this book and a couple others, sometimes a retelling or something that's pitched as a retelling doesn't resonate with me as well.
[00:27:12] So that was the most important thing I think I learned about myself with this book was that it was pitched as a Parent Trap retelling, but it didn't feel like one. So it just made me lose interest.
ANNE: Interesting. Did you read this for Maine as your challenge?
MARY: No, I didn't. This was one I read a few years ago, and I was like, "Why..." Or maybe a year or two ago, because I know it's a more recent book. But it was something that I was like, it would fit the state challenge, but it would have counted as probably a did not finish for me in the state challenge. And I have to find a new Maine book.
ANNE: What I was actually wondering is what you might read for Maine because there's so many good options.
MARY: I haven't decided for Maine yet, actually. So it's a wide open door because I know there's so many good books set in Maine. So if you have a good recommendation, toss it my way.
ANNE: Oh, I mean, yes, but that really get into the history of a place that I'm less sure about. But I do believe your problem here will be one of deciding which one title to read right now in 2026, not in digging up possibilities.
MARY: Absolutely.
[00:28:19] ANNE: Oh, there's lots of good ones. Actually, I think I just finished two good ones for Summer Reading Guide consideration. Always lots of good Maine books. Okay, but we have states that are harder to cover to get into. So we're not going to linger here. Mary, what have you been reading lately?
MARY: So, lately, these two books I have read and completed for my reading challenge. This first one knocked Oregon off the list, actually. So it is Shoe Dog by Phil Knight.
ANNE: Oh, that's fun.
MARY: I've always wanted to read it, but I was like, "I don't know." It wasn't the right timing. But I am a sports person, so sports history is also something I'm interested in. And this one really scratched that itch in the way that it did a deep dive on how he created Nike and all the business relatings with that, and also just how he did everything with business to get Nike to where it is today. It was a grind for him.
[00:29:18] It was so interesting to read that perspective and see how he got it off the ground. And also it was a really beautiful take on Oregon. And he talked a lot about the state and why he was so proud of it. He went to college in Oregon as well. So I really got to sink my teeth into that state in a way for where he grew up and where he lives now. So I really enjoyed that one. It scratched a couple of itches for me.
ANNE: Well, I love that for you. And I'm just noticing that that definitely fits, and also it's not the direction my brain was going when I heard Oregon.
MARY: But when I picked it up, I was like, "Oh, this actually would count." I was pleasantly surprised with how it actually related to the challenge. And I did get to learn a lot about Oregon and also one of the most popular companies that is in Oregon. So it was a good one.
ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. What else have you been reading?
[00:30:12] MARY: The other one is a fiction but it is set in a fictional town in North Carolina. This was a book series I picked up when I was on maternity leave as something to read, you know, during the nights with the baby if I was up and doing all the things. But it's called The Secret Book and Scone Society series. I just finished book seven out of eight.
It's a cozy mystery series set in this small little town centered around a bookstore, and the bookstore owner lives in a caboose, which is so cute, and it's very fun. But you really get to dive into this tiny little fictional town, which I feel like has to be made off of a place in North Carolina because it is just so quaint. There's a bunch of festivals that are centered around each of these books that would totally, in my mind, be somewhere in South Carolina. It just makes so much sense.
[00:31:09] It is really sweet and I really enjoy it. It's something I think I've gotten on like Kindle Unlimited, but you can also get them on the library too. But it's a very fun book.
ANNE: That series is very popular. I know we have fans on our team. I haven't read any Ellery Adams myself as of yet, but I've got lots of reading in front of me.
MARY: The latest one I read was centered around a mystery of an old house within the town. The owner of the house passes away and what they come to realize is she's a hoarder of books. But there's a family secret buried within the house about a little library within the house. And there's all these little mysteries that the bookstore seller—she's the main character of this whole series—the lady who dies, she's actually murdered. You know?
She leaves this thing for the main character, Nora, and says, "You must be the one to find it," and then it sends her on a wild goose chase throughout the house to find this little library.
[00:32:05] ANNE: Well, that sounds charming. Now, Mary, we've already talked about this quite a bit, but what are you looking for in your reading life right now?
MARY: I know I talked about this earlier, but I really want to steer away from a number goal in my reading challenges. I come up with one every year, and this USA challenge is definitely something different, but in a good way. It kind of has a reading goal number, but it has more of the feeling of really diving into my own country and exploring different states—armchair travel. Something different that really just makes me excited to read and not feel like I have to hit a goal and check off a box on Goodreads.
So that's something that I really want in my reading life. And I definitely want books that I can either have on my Kindle or books that I can do on audio because when you have an eight-month-old baby, you sometimes don't have as much time to sit down with a book in hand. So having the flexibility is something I'm really looking for right now.
[00:33:10] ANNE: Tell me more about using your library.
MARY: Okay. The St. Louis County Library system is absolutely fantastic. We have, I want to say at least... if it's not 20, it's at least right around 20 branches within the city. And we have Libby. So I use Libby religiously. And we have such a good selection on Libby. It's fantastic.
But we also have, with our system, a good way of getting books on loan from different libraries. So if I put in a submission for a book, usually I can get it within a week because one of the other libraries has it. That is a wonderful perk, and with all the events that we have here in town. I just love our library system so much. I give a huge shout-out to all the people that make it so great.
ANNE: I'm glad to hear that. Do I remember correctly that backlist is appreciated when it comes to this challenge?
MARY: Yes, absolutely.
ANNE: But also I believe for other reasons as well.
[00:34:06] MARY: Yes. I would prefer a backlist because sometimes I get overwhelmed with how many new books are out there that I forget that there are so many that have been published in the past that are also great. So I would love some backlist options that are accessible at the library as well, but ones that maybe I could get my hands on a little faster.
ANNE: That's all good to hear now. Please tell me the states that you are looking for.
MARY: Oh, okay. Some of the states that I had mentioned were... I haven't found many for the Dakotas, so North or South. I haven't found many for Oklahoma or New Mexico or Arizona. So states that are kind of like further out that I may not have visited or may not know much about them entirely because I live in the Midwest. I live in Missouri. So basically anything from, you know, Minnesota all the way down to Louisiana I've got a good grasp on them.
[00:35:04] And I will read books to accomplish the challenge from those wonderful states, but I would love to have more from the ones that are further out, like Maine or Rhode Island or places that I've already mentioned. So ones that are maybe not visited as much by some people, but I would really like to learn more about them.
ANNE: Okay, I think I remember like Arizona, New Mexico from your submission. Also Wyoming, Montana.
MARY: Yes, all those.
ANNE: Rhode Island?
MARY: Yeah.
ANNE: I know I've read titles where times at RISD have been really big in the plot, but can I tell you what they are off the top of my head?
MARY: Sure.
ANNE: No. No. I mean no.
MARY: Oh.
ANNE: No, I cannot. I cannot. But that has happened. And then talk to me about Kentucky books, please.
MARY: Oh, yes. Since I am... technically, sometimes I refer to myself as a girl of two cities. I was born in Louisville and went to college in Louisville, but most of my life has been in Saint Louis because my mom's from Louisville, my dad's from Saint Louis. So I've been back and forth between both states at least six times in my life. But now that I live here in Saint Louis, I am here to stay. We have a house. I am not leaving.
[00:36:19] But we frequent Louisville a lot and I am a huge, huge fan and just love the city of Louisville and always have. One thing with the Kentucky books is that I really want to read something either written by an author in Kentucky or something that connects to the history of horses or bourbon. Like, I would read anything within that category just because I am really fascinated by the state and all the wonderful things that it does with the Kentucky Derby and the bourbon history. But if there's any, you know, more nuanced things about Kentucky that stretch towards like the coal mines or things like that, I am all open and all ears for Kentucky books.
ANNE: I'm so curious what you're reading for Kentucky and Missouri, and if you don't know yet what the front-runners are or what ideas you're tossing around.
[00:37:17] MARY: For St. Louis in particular, and yes, I could have picked something else in Missouri, but this one I just could not wait to read. So there is a book that recently came out by Emily Murphy, and it is called The Ivory City. I don't know if you've heard about this, Anne.
ANNE: No, I don't know it.
MARY: It is a mystery romance set in St. Louis during the time of the World's Fair. It has been on my radar. It came out towards the end of last year. Actually, I believe it was on my birthday in November last year that it came out. I am a huge fan of everything to do with the 1904 World's Fair in St. Louis.
So when I saw this book come on the shelves, I immediately snagged it, and it was prominently shown at The Novel Neighbor. So I have that on my shelf and I've been saving it for either this spring or this summer to read, since that's when the fair was set in St. Louis at that time.
ANNE: That sounds fascinating. I have high hopes for you. I love that you identified this and knew it was for you and have it all queued up. Now, what about Kentucky?
[00:38:20] MARY: Kentucky I'm kind of open right now. I don't have anything perfectly slated. I have some ideas in my brain, but I'm open to hearing any you might have if you have any.
ANNE: Oh, I have some.
MARY: Okay.
ANNE: Also, we occasionally do literary tourism posts on Modern Mrs Darcy, and every year around Derby time I think, "Let's do Kentucky," and then I get a little busy with Summer Reading Guide everything and we kick it to the next year. But this year it's happening. We will have a list. It's coming late April or early May.
MARY: Oh, I'm so excited.
ANNE: And it's going to be short. Like, there aren't as many options as I wish there were for my home state, but there are some good ones and there's some new ones too. We'll talk about those last, but I want to put the more difficult to find titles for states more front and center.
[00:39:08] MARY: That sounds great.
ANNE: If that's okay. So, what if I grab some books that I have personally read and loved or high on my radar that also overlap with the states you're looking to cover literarily speaking right now? Does that sound like an okay plan?
MARY: That sounds wonderful. Let's get to it.
ANNE: Let's start with the Dakotas because you said that you were having a hard time turning up any books for that area at all. My mind immediately goes to Louise Erdrich. And you know what? Maybe we should start by saying that something interesting about this challenge, it seems to me from the outside, you know, I haven't been doing the planning and research like you have, but as you move across the United States, and you've talked specifically about pushing to the edges and further out than like the New England origins, but going, you know, up to Maine and out to California, and then there's lots of states that you're missing in the West for titles to read. You're a lover of history and also you will encounter such different history because that's how history works as you travel to these different states.
[00:40:10] The stories you're going to get from Dakota authors are not stories you could get from anybody else. But I love Louise Erdrich. I know we've talked about her a lot on the podcast. She's written nearly two dozen books that are really complex, drawn the history of the region, lots of really nuanced, well-developed characters.
And what she does through all these books is really explore what life is like specifically in... it's typically rural areas in North Dakota. And she certainly has books that go other places, whether that's Minnesota or out to DC or further south. But rural North Dakota is the bread and butter of so much of her fiction.
And because she's writing these often historical novels, we see the intersection of indigenous culture from the Dakotas and also how that intersects with immigrant culture, specifically from Europe. I don't think there's a bad book you could pick, but we talked about The Night Watchman on this podcast before. I think Louise Erdrich will be abundant in the St. Louis Public Library system, especially many of her books have won awards. Those are more likely to be carried by libraries. But The Night Watchman would be a good one.
[00:41:26] This was just published in March 2020. The character of her title, the night watchman, is based on the life of her own grandfather who was a night watchman and who had this history of being an advocate for his Chippewa people. He traveled from rural North Dakota to DC to advocate for the Chippewa tribe and to specifically fight against native dispossession of their tribal lands.
There's more that happens in this story. There's a disappeared young woman who needs to be found, but that intersects with almost like the moral backdrop of The Night Watchman plot. But I fear that makes it sound more boring than it is. Like this is a suspenseful story. But for a more recent work, The Mighty Red just came out in fall 2024. She just has a new book of short stories out just about right now called Python's Kiss. So this is backlist but barely.
But The Mighty Red is about a young 18-year-old woman named Kismet who feels trapped. Her boyfriend's parents desperately want her to marry their son. They want her to stay in the region. They want them to get married. They want her to rescue him. He needs her, but it's really not clear what has happened and why she is so needed and why she's feeling this pressure to shore up this family.
[00:42:48] So there's that very relational plot, but this book is also about farming right now and the devastating effects of corporations and rural communities and the landscapes in which they exist and are struggling to exist. And I think even so much has changed since this was published in 2024; it would have been written a year or two before that.
This is standalone, but it's also a sequel to her 1986 novel The Beet Queen, also set in Argus, North Dakota, which is a fictional town but it's where many of her novels are set, like Love Medicine, The Round House, also The Night Watchman. I do feel like any of her work would be a good book for your challenge. How does that sound?
MARY: That sounds awesome. And it's because I've actually never heard of her. So when you started talking about all these different books that she's written about the Dakotas, the farming culture, the people that have lived there, that just sounds so great to me and something that I could actually learn more about that area of the country. So I am all for it.
[00:43:49] ANNE: I'm delighted to hear it. Now I'm really curious how often we really have talked about her on the podcast because I know we've talked about The Master Butchers Singing Club, The Sentence, Shadow Tag, The Night Watchman. But I'm delighted. I'm delighted to make the acquaintance.
Let's see. We're in the Dakotas. Let's keep going west. You know, Barbara Kingsolver is not a Kentucky author, is she? No, she was born in Maryland.
MARY: Yeah, but she's got some connection to Kentucky as well, I'm pretty sure.
ANNE: I do feel like she has a connection to Kentucky. And I believe her brother has a connection to your alma mater.
MARY: I think so. I'm pretty sure you're right now.
ANNE: I don't know how loose we want to play with this challenge, but also, I'm not advocating for her for Kentucky. But if we wanted to, she has written a lot about Appalachia, and Kentucky is not Appalachia, but Appalachia is in Kentucky. So I think we could make an argument. But I've got an Arizona title for you.
MARY: Okay.
[00:44:51] ANNE: She has a work that's now 30 years old called The Bean Trees. It's her first novel. This is her 1987 debut. Gosh, I guess that's more than 30 years ago. It's hard to believe that anyone we're currently reading who just... I mean, she has blown me away with her recent books.
But when I first came to this book, I've read this in the past 10 years, more than five, less than 10, but it was so interesting to see so many of the same themes that she explores in her works that I mean that she's probably writing right now still in this 1987 debut. And they are her Kentucky roots.
The protagonist of this book is a poor Kentucky woman who has headed West because she is determined to make a better life for herself, and the place she lands is Arizona, which is where we're going to put this book for your purposes. And I think it's where it belongs, but it does have that Kentucky tie. But she's also talking about unlikely families that find and really need and thrive with each other.
[00:45:54] The American Southwest shows up constantly in our fiction, issues of immigration. She writes a lot of young characters who have lots of growing up to do, and we get to see them do some of that growing up on the page.
I have to tell you, I always thought The Bean Trees was a really weird title, though the cover, the different versions of the covers are striking. But I was surprised to discover when I finally read it that the bean trees are wisteria. And I remember reading this at the same time my own backyard wisteria was coming into bloom and I was like, "Oh, I see it. I see it, Barbara Kingsolver."
But this is about a young Kentucky woman who seeks a better life, heads West in her old beat-up, barely starting-up car, who encounters a Cherokee woman who leaves a baby in the passenger seat of her car. This young Kentucky woman begins a new life with this newfound soon-to-be family in Tucson, and we see what happens with this little group of people.
[00:46:53] But there are other directions you could go in Arizona. A book that my own mother loved is called These Is My Words: The Diary of Sarah Agnes Prine, 1881-1901 by Nancy E. Turner. This is actually the first in a trilogy. And this is old... it was published in 1998 and it's an epistolary historical novel that the author based on her own family's diary. So what we have here is a fictional diary, not her actual grandmother's or ancestor's diary.
But Sarah Agnes Prine is a young girl growing up on the American frontier in the late 1800s. And it begins when she's a girl. I listen to the audio, so you don't quite catch what the author does on the page, which is when Sarah's a girl, like her grammar, her spelling are purposely bad. But then as she gets older and finds a treasure trove of books and engages on this adventure of self-education, you see that evolve. But this is for readers who really enjoy warm-hearted, likable characters.
[00:47:56] We see Sarah fall in love and marry. We see the ways that goes well for her and the ways it doesn't. We see the trials on the frontier, just issues of survival on top of the relational hardships. But you could also go a totally different direction for New Mexico, Arizona, Utah. You'd have to decide where to put them. But our team member, Holly, who is our What Should I Read Next? media specialist, relocated to New Mexico just in the past couple of years, and she put together a list for the blog where I was thrilled to recognize some of my favorite authors like Rebecca Roanhorse, but also find some new ones.
But she wrote this post called "Nine Books Celebrating Diné," which is Navajo authors and stories, and these books all are connected to and set on the Navajo Nation lands, which is synonymous with the Diné lands, which encompasses parts of New Mexico and Arizona and Utah. She says this is approximately the size of West Virginia. It's 27,000 square miles in this region. Check out that list and see what appeals to you. But the Rebecca Roanhorse novels are my favorite personally.
[00:49:11] The one that Holly included on her list there is Trail of Lightning. This is set in a post-apocalyptic Dinétah, which is formerly the Navajo reservation, and it follows a young girl who is a monster hunter who is tasked to track down a missing girl. And Rebecca Roanhorse's books are often firmly set in this historical cultural milieu that she knows so well, but she incorporates these fantastical elements, like the monsters that need to be vanquished.
I don't know how any of those sound to you for this region. We have The Bean Trees, These Is My Words, Rebecca Roanhorse... And to give you a taste of some of the other books that Holly surfaced, some are non-fiction like Yellow Dirt: An American Story of a Poisoned Land and the People Betrayed by Judy Pasternak, which is about how things like the Manhattan Project impacted the actual environment where people lived in the Navajo Nation.
[00:50:10] Or Code Talker: The First and Only Memoir By One of the Original Navajo Code Talkers of WWII. I know you said you didn't want to do only World War II, but perhaps this would qualify as lesser-known history that would then appeal to you. Some of us know about this from the 2002 Nicolas Cage movie, but this is the story about how the Navajo language was used as a code that could not be cracked during World War II.
MARY: Wow. Okay, there are so many books to unpack there, but it makes me so excited, especially not only the ones you mentioned previously, but the one specifically about the Manhattan Project. I recently read a book about that project that was a historical fiction—I'd have to look up the name—but that book sounds very interesting too, along with The Bean Trees, which has actually been on my list for quite some time. So that might be one that I end up picking up.
[00:51:05] ANNE: Mmm. Okay. Well, it sounds like maybe you could read both for different states?
MARY: Yeah, I think so.
ANNE: Okay, I'm excited for you. And then let's go to Montana. An award-winning book I loved, which means super likely for your library to have it, published in 1993, is Montana 1948 by Larry Watson. It's short, but it packs a big punch. I would call it short and devastating.
It is the story of one family, but the reader knows reading it that this is not just the story of one family. This is one of those books that starts with an old man looking back and making sense of something that happened in his earlier days. And here our narrator is looking back to what happened when he was 12 back in his small hometown of Bentrock, Montana.
[00:51:57] The story begins with the death of his beloved Sioux housekeeper. But what we hear is how his father was trained as a lawyer but was the local sheriff, and is called upon to arrest his own brother, a war hero, for violent crimes against his housekeeper, but also many of the Sioux women in the community.
So here's his war hero but troubled since the war, esteemed community member, white man who has brought great harm upon this woman and many of the Sioux women in their community. So even as a 12-year-old, this child could see that something is deeply, deeply wrong here. And he feels like it's his family's fault. And if it's not his family's specific fault for all of it, he can see that his family is implicated in crimes far bigger than just pertaining to his family.
[00:52:52] This is short and intense and a little bit bloody and haunting and quite a reading experience. Sensitive readers, give this one to Google before you jump in. But you could also go with the works of a well-known Montana author, Ivan Doig. Actually, you know what, I'm not sure what his birthplace is, but he has written many novels set in Montana and also this memoir called This House of Sky: Landscapes of a Western Mind that came out in 2009.
I hadn't read Ivan Doig up until I read This House of Sky, but he was often compared to some of my personal favorites like Wallace Stegner and Wendell Berry, which made me think like, "Oh, I could give him a try." And actually, this was a What Should I Read Next? recommendation for me. Jim Mustich when he came on What Should I Read Next?, He said, "Anne, you should read This House of Sky." So I did.
[00:53:47] This is Ivan Doig's attempt to capture the story of his father's extraordinary life. And while it is the story of one man's life, it reads like a meditation on family and forgiveness and survival in a difficult landscape of Montana. And you hear about the ranches and the wilderness and the beauty and also difficulty of living in that landscape. That's what we got from Montana, or two favorites of mine, at least. I don't know how either of those sounds to you.
MARY: They sound wonderful, especially the one you just mentioned, This House of Sky. That sounded phenomenal because if I can't actually get to that state just yet, if I can feel like I'm in that state while I'm reading, I feel like that book would achieve that if it's talking about the landscape. So that sounds very intriguing to me.
[00:54:37] ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. Okay, can we go back to Kentucky?
MARY: Yes, that'd be great.
[00:54:43] ANNE: There's a literary tourism list coming, but I feel like you need to know about The Bourbon Kings series by J.R. Ward.
MARY: Oh, I have not heard of this.
ANNE: She's a Louisville author. She has a series called The Bourbon Kings. Give it a look. I'm wondering about Seabiscuit by Laura Hillenbrand, which I don't believe Seabiscuit is a Kentucky horse. I don't remember where Seabiscuit originated, but yeah, it's not Kentucky. But horse racing is Kentucky and the Derby is Kentucky. And that is a narrative history about a topic I didn't think I'd want to know about, but it turns out when Laura Hillenbrand is writing it, I really, really do.
Also, Horse by Geraldine Brooks goes back and forth in time between somewhat contemporary Washington DC and Lexington, Kentucky at least a hundred years ago, where a Black, I think groomsman or possibly trainer, is taking great care of the rich white family's racehorse. These are obviously quick and easy, surfacy, skimming descriptions. I'm wondering about Lee Cole. Have you read anything by him?
MARY: No, I haven't. Okay.
[00:55:51] ANNE: He's from Paducah. I remember reaching out to What Should I Read Next? alum Sarah Holland being like, "Oh, hey, this author's from your town," and she's like, "I know. I know. I know him." But his debut is Groundskeeping. And I think I heard you mentioned some of the celebrity book clubs. This one was a Read with Jenna pick.
Groundskeeping is set at this fictional liberal arts college, and I can't remember if that college is supposed to be in Louisville or not, but much of the book takes place in Louisville. And whether or not you enjoy the book as a whole... I mean, this is literary fiction that is very clearly wrestling with the current political landscape in this country and in academia. But there's this sequence in the book where the protagonist takes a walk from—y'all, Mary's gonna know exactly what I'm talking about—from the Highlands down at Lexington Road. It might be Payne Street, Spring Street, but comes up Frankfort all the way to Clifton and the edges of Crescent Hill, and he's like wandering in and out of some of these establishments.
[00:56:55] He bumps into a local musician. He's just checking in the landscape, the scenery. I'm sure not everybody enjoys this kind of thing, but as someone whose city does not get featured a lot in fiction, I ate this up. And maybe you will too.
MARY: Oh, that sounds wonderful.
ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. That's Groundskeeping. And he has a new book that I haven't read yet called Fulfillment that just came out. I think it was last fall. I don't know how Kentucky it is, but he remains a Kentucky author. Then there's a new book coming out in May that I will be talking about more in these parts that is set just very grounded in 1980s Lexington, Kentucky, like where the roads are named and the locations are Googleable and the local history is real. That's a hard book, but oh, it's juicy and fun and very, very Kentucky. We'll talk about that a bit more when we hang up, we end the official recording.
MARY: Okay, that sounds good.
[00:57:51] ANNE: Readers, it's coming for you, just not today. Okay. Mary, we talked about a lot of books today. I think I just want to know how are you feeling about your project and what are you thinking you might read, let's stay soon.
MARY: Okay. This helped me out so much with my challenge, especially before the states that, you know, I haven't really thought too much about. But this just gets me even more excited to dive into some of these things about these states because you gave me quite a few recommendations. So I am floored and very excited to dive in. But of the ones you recommended, I've had The Bean Trees on my list for years. I have not picked it up. So I feel like that might be the one that I gravitate to along with Groundskeeping, which is the one you just mentioned about Kentucky. So I feel like those might take two states off my list.
[00:58:43] ANNE: I'm delighted to hear it. Thank you so much for bringing your project to our show and our readers, and thanks for talking books with me today.
MARY: Oh, any time. It was a joy to come on and I am floored that you asked me to come on to talk about this. And I hope that if anyone else is interested about learning about this challenge or trying it themselves, that they give it a go.
ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Mary and I'd love to hear what you think she may enjoy reading next for her project. Find Mary on Instagram at @ShowMeReads. We'll have that link as well as the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.
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Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.
English (US) · 