Seeking heartwarming, oh-so-discussable reads

[00:00:00] ANNE BOGEL: It can still sound perfect for you and not be Dolly Parton.

MADELINE JANNEY: Yeah, true. Although the new edition is always good.

ANNE: A little overlap of things you love never hurts.

Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

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[00:01:50] Readers, we get a bunch of submissions from book club members who are interested in finding the right picks for their reading groups. Today, I'm exploring a deliciously fun twist on this idea. Madeline Janney lives in her hometown of New Orleans, where she enjoys her work as an early intervention speech therapist and all her hobbies, including reading, yoga, cooking, and a special community group that is unique to her community, as you'll hear.

This year, Madeline and her mom are forming a book club of two. They're planning to pair their to-be-read list with the New Orleans restaurants they've been dying to try. Madeline would love my help and ideas as they build out their plan to find books they can enjoy reading together every month and then discuss them over lunch at a local restaurant. If I can provide a set of questions to help them lightly structure their conversations, that would be appreciated as well.

Today, we are looking for books that suit the small space where their reading tastes overlap, and Madeline gives me an important clue to finding books they'll both enjoy. That is that New Orleans people love reading about New Orleans.

[00:02:52] You know, something I didn't tell Madeline was it's not just New Orleans people who love reading and talking about her city. I hope you enjoyed listening in today. I sure enjoyed the conversation.

Readers, let's get to it.

Madeline, welcome to the show.

MADELINE: Thank you so much. I can't wait to talk to you.

ANNE: Oh, I'm so excited. You know, we were just reminiscing, perhaps, about how you sent in your submission on New Year's Eve, last day of the year. What brings you to What Should I Read Next? right now?

MADELINE: I have to give a shout-out to my really good friend Joseph for introducing me to the podcast.

ANNE: Oh, thank you, Joseph.

MADELINE: Yeah, he's wonderful. We met in our doctoral program for speech pathology. So we're remote friends right now, but we do get to see each other in person periodically. But we both love to walk, listen to podcasts, and he thought that I would love this one, and I definitely do.

[00:03:45] But I was sick with the flu over the holidays, and I figured that was the time to take to submit an application. So that is what brings me here. But I'm so excited to just hear from you and ask you some of my questions about reading.

ANNE: Is this new year new goals, or is that timing maybe not as meaningful as it could be perceived to be?

MADELINE: I think it's also stemmed from just being sick and home for a few days. I like to be out and about a lot, although I do also love being home. But being home for so many days in a row, I was just kind of dreaming about all the things that I could do once I could leave the house again. And so I think it just gave me a little bit of time to actually execute on some ideas that I'd had. And I do love that the timing worked out with a new year.

ANNE: Well, I'm glad it brought you to us. Madeline, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? We just want to give our listeners a glimpse of who you are and where you are.

[00:04:46] MADELINE: Sure. So my name is Madeline. I live in New Orleans. I'm born and raised here. I currently live in the part of town called the CBD, which is just a couple blocks from the French Quarter. The French Quarter is so much more residential than people think it is. So it's a really fun area to live in.

Professionally, I'm a speech therapist, and I work with kids ages 0 to 3. Of course, there's a little more to it than this sounds, but I basically play with kids all day, which is so much fun. I love, too, that a part of what I do is working with the families, so parents, caregivers, or even teachers, because I'll work with some kids at their schools, and just really talking a lot about early literacy. That feels like a really fun tie-in to my love of reading that I get to bring into my job, and of course, actually reading books with kids, although they're so little, so it's more looking at their pictures.

ANNE: Oh, this is taking me back. I had a kid in speech therapy in that age window a long time ago.

[00:05:45] MADELINE: I like to think that people generally have a good experience. Most of us really love our jobs. So that makes me happy to hear.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. Madeline, tell us more about your life in New Orleans.

MADELINE: Sure. In true NOLA fashion, I love to cook. I love mixing up cocktails at home, sometimes both at the same time, which is a lot of fun. But I also try to balance that with some healthier habits, I guess. I also really love practicing yoga. I'm actually going through yoga teacher training right now, mostly just to deepen my own practice, but maybe to teach classes one day. I also love playing pickleball. I'm terrible at it, but it's so much fun. I think it's a great sport for people who are not great at sports. So those are some things I like to do in my free time.

[00:06:36] It is Mardi Gras season right now so I'm in full Mardi Gras mode. I'm a member of the Krewe of Dolly, which is a walking group. So we walk in Mardi Gras parades instead of riding on a float. We're kind of interspersed in between the floats.

What the Krewe of Dolly is, is a group of about 700 of us currently who dress up as Dolly Parton. We also have some people who dress as Willie Nelson or Kenny Rogers and they kind of help with crowd control and security. We walk in Mardi Gras parades and participate in other community events. Of course, Dolly Parton's Imagination Library, if you're not familiar, is a program in different areas of the country where families can register their children to be sent free books up until the age of five, I believe.

[00:07:34] So all of our fundraising efforts and our kind of philanthropy for Krewe of Dolly goes towards the New Orleans chapter of the Imagination Library. There's some really dedicated members in the Krewe of Dolly who kind of coordinate the Imagination Library piece of things, but we all are there to support and fundraise and raise awareness as well for families to get more books to their kids, which I think any listeners of this show would think is a great thing, too.

ANNE: Yes, I love that it comes back to books. Madeline, we're actually airing this episode on Mardi Gras. And listeners, it's not like this was some master plan we've been cooking up forever, but it just kind of happened that way. We're digging it on our end, Madeline. So thank you for that. But it is Mardi Gras when this episode is going out in the world. Tell us a little bit about, I don't know, what you're up to today, this week, what your Krewe of Dolly is doing.

[00:08:30] MADELINE: Yes, I'm so excited that this will air on Mardi Gras Day. That is such incredible planning. Take all the credit! So my mom and I are in the Krewe of Dolly together, and tomorrow we will be walking in a parade. It's called the Krewe of Cork. So the whole parade is wine-themed. It's a little different than some of the larger parades that people might see on social media or on TV.

This one is just a smaller walking parade in the French Quarter itself. But then a couple of days from now as well we'll be walking in one of those larger parades with all the floats and marching bands, and we will be behind a float that happens to be Dolly Parton themed. So I'm excited about that as well.

But it is definitely a busy time for crafting and costume planning and not working, which is fun because I work for myself. So I don't have to ask permission. But tomorrow I will be taking the day off to be in the parade. And yeah, we're really excited.

[00:09:40] ANNE: Aw, I'm excited for you. That sounds like a blast. Madeline, tell me about your reading life.

MADELINE: Reading is probably one of my favorite hobbies. I think in the past, I treated it as a little bit more of a solitary hobby. It was something I really enjoyed doing, but I didn't think too much about the community aspect that could be there. But as of recently, I have just been really leaning in and enjoying leaning into the community.

So I'm in several book clubs: one with my friends, which has been around for several years now, and I participate in a book club for alumni of my master's program where we read books related to our field of speech pathology. Also just reading picks from different book clubs that I hear about, maybe the celebrity book clubs, but I'm not really deeply committed to any of those.

But I still think it's just fun to talk about books and be reading the same thing that other people are reading. But I also, I guess, choose not to feel the pressure of that. So if I'm not interested in something that people really like, I don't feel obligated to read it. But I do think it's fun when it works out that we can talk about reading the same things.

[00:10:59] But I'm such a library user, so that is something I factor in as well. With new releases, it can sometimes be hard to get them. But I try really hard when I know about a new release to put it on hold through my library before it even releases. And sometimes that works well and I can be the first person in line. So, yes, I love my library.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. Madeline, what do you tend to read these days?

MADELINE: My go-to, I would say, is what I call a rom-com. I know that's kind of a movie term. I think the bookish term would be contemporary romance. But I love Emily Henry, Jasmine Guillory, Annabel Monaghan, Farrah Rochon, whose episode of your show I listened to recently, Abby Jimenez. So those are kind of my auto-read authors, I would say, and anything that is a similar feeling to those books.

[00:11:56] But I also occasionally will enjoy more, I guess, pure romance books, but still with a sort of contemporary or maybe realistic feel to them. I do also sometimes read nonfiction. I love learning, but I think my nonfiction tends to lean more towards, I guess, social justice-type topics, or something maybe related to my work with families, with kids, with disabilities.

I would say what I don't really read too much of is fantasy or sci-fi. But I will say that I'm really open. If somebody really stands behind a book, even if it's not something on the surface I would think I would like, I will always give it a try. Which is also a great perk of using the library. There's really no loss if I don't like something. So I'm open, but I think my genre that I really gravitate to would be that contemporary romance.

[00:12:54] ANNE: That's really interesting to hear, thank you. I'm always excited to hear about readers willing to take chances on things. So thank you New Orleans Library and libraries everywhere.

Madeline, you mentioned your mom already and how you all are in the Krewe of Dolly together. But tell us more about how your mom factors into what brings you to What Should I Read Next? right now?

MADELINE: Yes, I would love to. My mom and I both love to read, although we have pretty different tastes, I would say. She loves reading more true crime or nonfiction, maybe memoirs or biographies, and I, as I mentioned, lean more towards fiction, maybe romance. But we both love to read.

We both also love to try different restaurants in the city, which in New Orleans, there is truly an endless list at all times of places to try. But I had this idea that we could do a two-person book club where we'll find a book that we both want to read, read it together or, you know, separately together over the course of the month, and then meet up for a Friday lunch at one of the restaurants on our list.

[00:14:01] My mom was really excited about the idea. We love doing things together. Being in Krewe of Dolly is so much fun. We take cooking classes together. We really enjoy hanging out. This was just something I thought could be a fun, kind of a loose structure, I guess, to a hangout, but also would just get us talking about something like a shared experience.

So that is kind of what I had in mind when I applied to be on the show, just to talk about some ideas for that, maybe book ideas or even just ideas of how to talk about the books that we read. Because we are so close that it feels a little bit funny to have a really formal structure for the conversation. But I also don't want us to be sitting there eating our lunch and saying, "I mean, I liked it." I think that's-

ANNE: Yes.

MADELINE: I could see that happening. So I'm excited to talk and maybe get some ideas about ways to just structure it a little bit, but still in a fun and casual way.

[00:15:07] ANNE: Just a little light structure.

MADELINE: Exactly.

ANNE: Well, that sounds fun. Madeline, I know that you brought the books that you love and don't to the podcast today. But as we're thinking about books that you and your mom may enjoy reading together, what else do I need to know?

MADELINE: In trying to think about maybe where the overlap of our tastes would be, I think many New Orleans people would agree with this, but one thing New Orleans people love is New Orleans. So we both have a tie to New Orleans. Maybe the setting or the character is from here. I think that could be a shared interest kind of regardless almost of what the topic is. So that is something I definitely think we would have in common.

[00:15:51] I think that my mom is open to fiction for sure, but I think she would like it to feel a little bit like nonfiction. So I'm open to that as well. I think maybe those contemporary romance books that I like maybe would not be the best for our book club. I just don't know if there's enough overlap in our interest for those. But I think there are definitely elements of things that we find in common. One title that we sort of played around with was The Pelican Brief by John Grisham, which I think I heard about on your show.

ANNE: I love The Pelican Brief. Yeah, that's a definite maybe.

MADELINE: Yeah. I asked my mom about it and she said she actually read it in college and remembers nothing. So it could be a good one to try, but we haven't committed yet. So we're open.

[00:16:45] ANNE: Madeline, sounds like a lot of fun. Okay, let's talk about the books you love and don't. And we'll talk a little bit about your taste because if there's any books I feel like you need to know about, then we'll make sure you know about them. And then we'll really camp out on this book club you're doing with your mom, your two-person book club. We'll talk about some questions to provide a light structure, if they sound good to you, and then some books that maybe you all will enjoy reading together.

[00:17:09] You know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and we will go from there to choose titles for various aspects of your reading life. Madeline, how did you choose these books you brought to the show today?

MADELINE: I tried to choose books that in some ways were representative of books I would like in general, but also some of them have elements that are a little bit of an outlier. I think this captures maybe the variety of books that I enjoy. It was so hard to narrow it down to just three, but I thought that these maybe represented best my taste.

ANNE: Okay, sounds good. What's the first book you love?

[00:17:51] MADELINE: The first one is Margo's Got Money Troubles by Rufi Thorpe. I thought this book was such a delight. If you had described the plot to me, I would not have necessarily thought it was something that would appeal to me so much. But it was the pick on another bookish podcast that I listened to that was recommended, and something about it just interested me.

But it is about Margo, who is a 20-year-old in community college, and she has an affair with her professor and gets pregnant, and decides that kind of despite her circumstances, she really wants to have this baby. There's just sort of a cast of characters in this book. Her mom is a Hooters waitress, and her dad is a former professional wrestler. And her dad, eventually in the book, moves in with her and ends up sort of helping with the baby, which is just so sweet and heartwarming. It sounds so funny, but I would say the overall feeling of this book is heartwarming.

[00:19:03] But kind of the funny angle of this book is that Margo realizes that she really needs to figure out a way to make some money, hence the title. And her dad ends up sort of helping her, using his professional wrestling background, to create this online persona, and essentially she monetizes that. There's lots of shenanigans involved with that, but it's so funny to read about and just truly so heartwarming, despite how the plot might sound. So I loved it.

ANNE: Well, that sounds lovely. Madeline, you said you wanted to choose books that represented the kind of books you like. What does this one represent?

MADELINE: For this one, I thought it was a good one to show that although I am kind of a plot-driven reader, the plot of this might not have been something that initially appealed to me, but the feeling when reading it that I got was, yeah, so heartwarming. I would say it represents that I enjoy or am open to, I guess I would say, books that, despite a maybe funny or unusual plot, the feeling I get when reading it is the feeling I look for, which is just lovable characters, flawed characters, and just some heartwarming moments. And this actually is going to become, I think it's a TV show, very soon. So I'm really excited to watch that, too.

[00:20:35] ANNE: Well, I'm glad you took a chance on this one. And thanks for demonstrating that you don't just say that, you really do mean it. Tone: lovable characters, heartwarming vibes.

MADELINE: Yes.

ANNE: Okay, that sounds good. What's the second book you love?

MADELINE: I also love Summer Romance by Annabel Monaghan. Really any of Annabelle Monaghan's books I love, but this one was maybe one of my favorites. This represents that more classic book that I go for, which is a rom-com or contemporary romance. I also feel like her books are really heartwarming and the characters are so likable and they feel like real people. Sometimes they're a little bit of a mess, as we all are sometimes. And the place that these books are often set just seem like places or towns that I would love to visit or live in.

[00:21:31] Often, the main character is in her 30s or 40s, sometimes, I believe, all of her main characters have children. But I really like reading about older protagonists: older meaning my age and older than me. I think a lot of contemporary romance can focus on really young characters, which I do enjoy as well, but there's a different element when the character is in her 30s or 40s, and I enjoy that a lot.

ANNE: Okay, I'm glad to hear that. You said in your submission that your go-to genre is what you think of as the book version of a rom-com. Is that what we have here?

MADELINE: Yes.

ANNE: That sounds lovely. Look, this doesn't actually relate in any way, except in the name, but her new one coming out this summer is called Dolly All the Time. It is not about Dolly Parton. The character is a deep brunette, but I think you're going to enjoy it based on what you said.

MADELINE: Yes, I can't wait.

ANNE: It can still sound perfect for you and not be Dolly Parton.

[00:22:32] MADELINE: True. Although the new edition is always good.

ANNE: A little overlap of things you love never hurts. Madeline, what's the third book you love?

MADELINE: I also really loved Demon Copperhead. This one is another one that maybe I wouldn't have picked up based only on the plot, but it was so popular when it released and it was something I think I'll admit I picked up because I just wanted to know what is going on with this, why is everyone talking about this? And I ended up loving it.

I guess it might be a little bit more literary leaning than I would typically read, but the voice is so unique because it is narrated by the main character, who for a lot of the book is a child. So we really see the book or the events of the book through his perspective as a child kind of growing up over the course of the book.

[00:23:27] I found this book, although it does cover some tough topics, still ultimately so heartwarming and just unique with the voice that we read from the main character. This one also I think represents... I like to try and read books that are popular, and I'm willing to be surprised even if the plot doesn't immediately appeal to me.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear that. And I really relate to your experience. I love Barbara Kingsolver, but when I found out that this was her next book back when it was announced, I thought, "I mean, I'll read it, but I don't know that this is a good idea." And by page three, I was like, "Tell me more, Barbara Kingsolver," just like, "I'm in it, tell me more."

MADELINE: Yes. I surprisingly have not read any of her other books yet, although they are sort of on my list. So I would love to hear if you have any of her other books that you recommend.

[00:24:29] ANNE: Ooh, maybe you and your mother would enjoy reading Barbara Kingsolver together.

MADELINE: That is very true.

ANNE: I'll think about that. That could be fun. Madeline, tell me about a book that wasn't a good fit for you. And I'd love to hear what about it didn't vibe with your reading life.

MADELINE: This one I'm almost afraid to say it because I know it is so beloved by so many people.

ANNE: Well, it's never just you. It's never just you.

MADELINE: I think you're right. The book that I brought that I did not love was Heart the Lover by Lily King. This was another one that was so popular or is so popular, and I was curious to see what it was about. I think it's sort of the inverse of what I said before, which the plot is maybe something that I would typically go for. So in that sense, it was very up my alley.

[00:25:21] But the way it was written, and I think primarily the personality of the characters, was not for me. I really enjoy reading books where the characters and the writing are very unpretentious. That sort of relatable real-life people aspect is something I'm really drawn to. And I think this book felt a little bit pretentious to me. The main characters struck me maybe as not people that I would be friends with in real life.

And although the plot was beautiful, the story is really well done, I think the fact that I did not really like the characters just really impacted my reading experience. I found some of their choices throughout the book to be a little bit unbelievable. And so I struggled with it. I did finish it, and I am glad I read it so that I can talk about it with people, but I was feeling disappointed after finishing it.

[00:26:25] ANNE: That's helpful to hear. Let me say I loved this book. I think something that I really loved was the emotional tone and how the narrator spent a lot of the time just trying to figure out what she thought. And what I'm getting from the books that you've enjoyed and the other ones you mentioned in your submission is your protagonists, at least the ones I'm seeing represented, they don't seem as mired in confusion, self-reflection. It's not that they don't have rich inner lives, but there's a directionality to that life that maybe is not there in Heart the Lover. I'm making this up on the fly. How does it sound?

MADELINE: That is exactly right. I could not have put it that way myself, but you nailed it. I'm actually so glad that you liked this book. I think that makes it fun to talk about. But I think you nailed it. This one wasn't for me because of the way that the characters thought and behaved sometimes did not feel relatable to me. And you said it accurately to my thoughts, which is, I like when things kind of move forward. I don't like a lot of dwelling on things. And I know some people love that. But for me, I like, as you said, when things kind of move forward.

[00:27:40] ANNE: That's good to know. Oh gosh. I mean, Madeline, these characters are definitely big nerds in a specific kind of way. At the beginning of the book, the thing that's initially spurring connections between the characters is some classroom one-upsmanship where they're trying to impress each other. And there's a lot of references to books that not everyone knows. and not everyone is supposed to know because it says a lot about who they are.

Some readers find that fascinating and they're making lists and now they want to read all the books and they're launching on these explorations. And you're not one of those readers. That's feeling like not the world that you want to step into in fiction. And that's neither good or bad. I like that we can talk about what the book is like, and then readers can decide if that's a world that they want to enter into, if that's an experience they want to have. But is this building out what you said about how they didn't feel like people you'd be friends with in real life?

[00:28:36] MADELINE: Yes. I love that bookish element to this book, kind of book within a book. But like you said, I felt like it wasn't necessarily references that I was interested to explore or that I had read. I just keep saying this, but I totally understand how people love this book and I love that they love it, but yes, I felt the references and the sort of heaviness of the literary side of it... I think I treat my reading life a little more lightly. So that part didn't feel relatable to me.

ANNE: Yeah, you talked about really liking the tone and the lovable characters and heartwarming vibes of Rufi Thorpe. And that's not what you have here with the Lily King. Not everybody wants their characters to feel like people they'd be friends with in real life, but it sounds like you really value that. So, you know, let's find that for you. And I'm noticing that some of the books that I was thinking might be a good fit for you and your mom might not tick that box, but we'll talk about it.

[00:29:43] MADELINE: Yeah. And I really am open. I definitely have been surprised by books before. Even if characters were not likable or relatable, I certainly have read and loved, I guess, heavier, for lack of a better word, books. But it might be the exception more than the rule.

ANNE: And oftentimes it's the exception that makes a wonderful reading experience. But that doesn't mean that typically you're not a kind of reader who gravitates towards a certain kind of thing. I mean, you can go off the path, it's fun to go off the path, but also it's nice to know what your path maybe is like right now, where to find it.

MADELINE: Yes. I completely agree with you too, that sometimes those surprising books are some of the best ones. Like Demon Copperhead that I mentioned earlier, that one just really surprised me, which I think made the experience even richer. So I'm certainly open to being surprised.

ANNE: Well, I'm glad to hear it. Madeline, what have you been reading lately?

[00:30:39] MADELINE: I recently read and loved The Correspondent, which I think many of us have probably read. That definitely captured that sort of heartwarming feeling that I look for. If readers are not familiar, it's written all in letters, so that was a really interesting and fun component to that book.

I also have recently read and loved Grace & Henry's Holiday Movie Marathon by Matthew Norman. I would really compare that book to an Annabel Monaghan book in terms of feeling, but it was written by a male author, which I really thought was interesting that a sort of romantic comedy, like I would call it, there are male authors out there writing it too.

I also really enjoy a series called the Ruby Vaughn series. It is written by my friend, Jess Armstrong. I recently finished her third book in the series called The Devil in Oxford. For this one, it's sort of a historical gothic mystery, I would say. But the main character is this really spunky female sleuth sort of person. And she just sort of gets into some situations that are a little bit funny, but there's that mystery element.

[00:31:58] I think the feeling I get from those books is something that I do enjoy. It's cozy, but there's still some action and mystery. I've really enjoyed those as well.

ANNE: Okay, thanks for sharing those. And how fun that your friend is a novelist?

MADELINE: Yes, I'm so happy for her. She's very talented. Her new book is coming out a little bit later this year. So I can't wait to read that one too.

ANNE: Oh, I'm excited for you. Okay, Madeline. So we know that we are looking for books for your and your mom's two-person book club. Also, we're going to talk about some questions you can use to lightly structure your conversation. But first, I don't want to disappoint our listeners who I imagine are hoping right now that you will share a couple of your favorites or can't wait to visit New Orleans restaurants. Could you help a reader out?

[00:32:50] MADELINE: I would love to.

ANNE: Take it away.

MADELINE: The list of favorites is very long. I always semi-jokingly tell people, if a restaurant in New Orleans stays open for more than about a year or two, it's probably really good because the competition is stiff. You know, of course newer restaurants might pop up and close down, but in general, it's really hard to go wrong with something that's been around for at least a few years.

But we also have very, very old restaurants around here. So I think about Antoine's or Galatoire's. Those are some of the really classic New Orleans fine dining type restaurants. But I also love a hole in the wall. One of my favorite taco places is kind of like a shed behind a bar called Tacotastic. It's delicious, just as good as fine dining to me, but it is definitely not fine dining.

[00:33:48] Also, I really love architecture and history and character of the buildings in New Orleans. I think about that sometimes too, just the experience of a restaurant. I really love... it's actually a hotel, but there's a restaurant in there. It's called the Columns Hotel. I love going there because it's just so beautiful and a reason to be in that space is always a good one.

Those are some of my favorites, I would say. But some of the ones that we are looking to try soon: a restaurant called Acamaya, which is a newer Mexican restaurant, a restaurant called Dakar, which is Senegalese food. I also am looking forward to trying a restaurant called St. Clair that opened recently. It is by the chef of... I should have mentioned this before, but one of my favorite and best restaurant experiences ever was at a place called Mosquito Supper Club. And the chef from that restaurant has opened a second one called St. Clair. So I can't wait to try that one as well.

[00:34:51] ANNE: Well, thank you for sharing those. Let's do some light questions first, and then we'll get into the books you might use them on. Does that sound good?

MADELINE: Sure.

ANNE: I hear you, that there's no conversation if you both just sit down and go, "I liked it." In fact, I think without a structure, it's easier to talk about a book that you didn't enjoy. But to talk about a book you liked could be tricky. Is there anything that you know you'd want to ask your mom after you both finish the same book?

MADELINE: Yeah. I think that we would enjoy talking about the characters, I guess. Sort of analyzing their personalities and just talking about the people aspect of the books that we read. But I also think we'd probably enjoy talking about the ending of books. So, okay, like, was that believable? Did it surprise us? But I don't know that we would necessarily really be interested in diving really deep into writing structure or something like that.

[00:35:55] I would say we'd probably enjoy most talking about the characters and the plot. And of course, if it's something set in New Orleans or Louisiana, we would love talking about the setting. I think sometimes people get New Orleans very right, but sometimes they get it very wrong. So that, you know, anytime there's a movie or TV show or book, we love to talk about like, "That neighborhood isn't next to that one," and "That would take 30 minutes to drive from there to there, and it was around the block in that movie." So yeah, I think we would enjoy talking about the setting as well.

ANNE: Oh, I love that. Okay, here's a tiny little story to confirm what you said. You and I were chatting before how I've spent like a combined week of my life in New Orleans. So not a lot of time. But I'd love to keep racking up my days, weeks, and months.

[00:36:47] But the first time I was in New Orleans was for work, and there were a lot of writers there for this thing I was attending. And there was a writer there who attended and booked a few extra days to spend time in the city because she really wanted to set a novel there. After the end of our time together, a few of us were asking like, "Well, what do you think? Did you get good ideas for your story?" And she was like, "Oh, absolutely not. What I have learned in my time here is you cannot write about the city unless you know the city. And I feel like it would take me a lifetime to get to know the city." That's not true of every place, but like what a joy to live in a place where it is true.

MADELINE: It is.

ANNE: Apparently, based on your reading experience, that doesn't stop plenty of people from trying.

MADELINE: Right.

ANNE: But I had a lot of respect for what she... both for the city and her writing process and her authorly assessment eyes for the way she talked about that.

[00:37:41] MADELINE: I love to hear that she was trying to get to know our city. I think for me, something I love about that is that, like you said, we will never, even as someone who has lived here my whole life, I don't think I would ever feel like I could describe everything about the city. There's just always a list of things to learn and places to see and food to eat. I think that's funny that she realized that after even a few days.

ANNE: I'm thinking of that Calvino quote: "A classic is a book that has never finished saying what it has to say." I think that's true of New Orleans as well. Or at least that's definitely the impression I'm getting.

MADELINE: Yes.

ANNE: Okay. So, as you offer up those questions you might talk about with your mom, talking about the people, talking about the ending, I'm just noticing how much those overlap with the things you've said about why you enjoy the books you love. Like what is the tone like? What does it feel like to be in that story? Did you love the characters? What are the vibes? You hope they're heartwarming. And I really think there is a lot to be said there for talking about how the book made you feel and what attitude and sometimes like interrupted that experience.

[00:38:54] Some good opening questions could be like: "What were you expecting when you picked up the book? Like, did you have any preconceived ideas about what story you were going to find? And then what did you actually find?" You all could talk about your first impressions. Like: "What did you think in the early chapters about where the story was going and how it was set up?" And if the setting felt realistic, whatever feels good to you.

I think talking about what surprised you in the story is always a good idea. Always stands out. What set it apart from other books you've read that are similar? You could talk about books that it reminded you of. You could talk about people that the characters reminded you of.

I do think talking about the people since you surfaced that yourself could be really interesting. Maybe like, "Which character did you most enjoy spending time with? Did any characters remind you of people in your life? Did anything seem not quite true or realistic to the character on the page? Who do you want to interact with in real life? Who did you cringe when they appeared in the chapter?"

[00:39:56] And then talking about the ending, I think that when you surfaced that question, like what it made me think is, of course, like we want to talk about how the story resolves. But I think another way of saying like, "what did you think of the ending?" is saying like, "Did the story feel right? Did the story feel true? What do you think the author was trying to do in this story? Was she trying to argue for the world being a certain way or just take you on an escapist journey, or pose like an interesting 'what if' question?"

And a question about the ending I think could really be, "Was it well done? Did the author succeed in telling the story that it seemed like they wanted to tell?" What grabs you there? What are you thinking would be especially interesting to talk about with your mom? And also, does that get you thinking of any additional questions that you know would be good to jot on the napkin at the restaurant?

[00:40:50] MADELINE: I love everything you just shared. I think those are all things I could see us talking about, especially sort of how you said, how did certain things make us feel? I can be sort of like I said earlier with liking plots that move forward and just like action, I guess, in books, I can feel similarly when talking about books.

ANNE: You know what that makes me think, Madeline, is in a nutshell, what I tell What Should I Read Next? guests I want to hear about when they tell me about the books they love and don't, was, "What was your reading experience like? What did you experience, particularly emotionally when reading this book?" A question like that could last you the whole lunch.

MADELINE: Yeah, that's very true. It's easy for me to kind of talk about sort of like you said, what did I like about this? How did it make me feel? Sort of on a high level that might be easy for us to talk about. I think some of the questions you suggested can help us sort of get to a little bit of the finer details, but without going so deep into literary analysis and that sort of thing, because I don't think that is probably what we would be looking for. But I think the questions you suggested really nailed it with the ways to get a little bit deeper, but still sort of sticking to the parts of the book that we would be interested in talking about.

[00:42:17] ANNE: Yeah. And I think it's helpful to really voice that. It sounds like the point of your mother-daughter book club isn't to analyze the text, but to give you a jumping off point to talk about aspects of your lives and things that bring you entertainment and insight that you wouldn't talk about without the book there in front of you. So what you're saying makes a ton of sense, and I think it's going to lead you to a place that feels really good during your Friday lunches.

MADELINE: Yes, that's exactly right, how you said it. We have so many shared experiences, but I think that the books could bring out maybe aspects that we don't know about each other, even though as close as we are. I think it could help us, as you said, get to things that we might not have normally talked about or that just might not have come up in a day-to-day conversation.

ANNE: Okay, that sounds good. Now you want to talk about some of those specific books?

[00:43:17] MADELINE: Yes, I would love to. I have my pen and paper ready.

ANNE: New Orleans people love to talk about New Orleans. I wasn't expecting to go here, but let's give this a try. I'm also very aware that if New Orleans people love to read about New Orleans, it's possible you all have read all of these already, but fingers crossed.

MADELINE: I am not against a reread, even if so.

ANNE: Okay.

MADELINE: I'm ready to hear.

ANNE: You said something when you were describing restaurants actually about how you are... ooh, you can fill in the verb here because I wasn't writing fast enough. But you mentioned the history and character of the buildings mattering so much, especially in New Orleans. That especially got me thinking about Sarah M. Broom's memoir, The Yellow House. Do you know this one?

[00:44:04] MADELINE: Yes, I did read this. I actually read it... I started a book club at my previous job, and I had us read that as our first pick because the area of the city that that book is set in, New Orleans East, was an area that we would work in a lot and that I currently work in a lot, and it's a really under-talked-about part of the city. So yes, that is such a good one. I don't think my mom has read it, so that could be a good shared one for us.

ANNE: Okay. Maybe worth revisiting together?

MADELINE: Yeah.

ANNE: Do you remember what your reading experience was like?

MADELINE: I do. I remember it feeling pretty heavy. This book talked about sort of the generations of a family through the lens of this house, which of course I loved that approach. But despite our wonderful culture and food and music and people, there is sort of a darker side to things. There is a lot of poverty in certain areas. There is a lot of underserved people in our city. I think this really gave a glimpse into that side of things, and that is really rare, I find, in portrayals of New Orleans. So I enjoyed it from the aspect of learning from it, but I would not say it was a light and fun read by any means, but it was very powerful.

[00:45:32] ANNE: Yeah. Okay. That tracks. While we're talking about books in a similar vein, this isn't New Orleans precisely, but one of the stops is nearby. Have you read How the Word Is Passed by Clint Smith?

MADELINE: No, I've not heard of this.

ANNE: Okay. It came out about five years ago. This is a really interesting book. It's like a real genre blender, and it has some of elements that I... I think this could be a really good overlap based on what I've heard about your mom's reading taste and your reading taste.

So Clint Smith is a poet and journalist, and this is his first full-length nonfiction work. And what he's really doing is writing a little bit like memoir, personal stories, lots of history. It feels like a travelogue as well as he moves around the U.S. and abroad to explore the legacy of slavery in the U.S., and so he invites you, the reader, to come on a little tour with him.

[00:46:33] He goes to these nine physical places that are really important to that history. Early on, he goes to Thomas Jefferson's estate, Monticello. He goes to New York City. He goes to Senegal. That's where he goes abroad. But he also goes to the Whitney Plantation in Louisiana, which I think he described as being like an hour outside of New Orleans.

MADELINE: Yes, yes. It's a really unique plantation in the sense that everything there is talked about from the perspective of the enslaved people, which is just very cool.

ANNE: Interesting. Well, he goes there and to all these places in this book, like really assessing: "How do they reckon or not with the ongoing legacy of slavery in America?" Some of the stuff he's talking about is really hard, but also like reading it, I felt like: "Clint Smith, I will follow you anywhere and listen to you tell me about anything." Like, this is just absolutely fascinating and so much to talk about. How does that sound like it might be for you two?

[00:47:39] MADELINE: That sounds great. I would love to read that. It sounds like it really captures that sense of place. Like you said, he was physically in these places, which I think as we talked about a little bit with New Orleans is really important in order to tell the story more accurately. So I'm really excited to try this one.

ANNE: Okay, good. I'm glad to hear that. On a lighter note that does fit in very nicely with your lunch theme, I'm wondering if you read anything by the journalist Rick Bragg?

MADELINE: No, I haven't.

ANNE: Okay. I think this could be a lot of fun for you and your mom. He writes... I mean, I think the first Rick Bragg work I encountered was before I even knew his name. He wrote a column in Southern Living magazine when I was a kid. He's been at this for forever.

[00:48:31] The collection that immediately leaps to mind for you two is My Southern Journey. The subtitle is True Stories from the Heart of the South. This came out five to 10 years ago, but it's a collection of many of his nonfiction pieces. Some of these have been previously published. Some are just new for the book. Some are many pages long, some are just a few. But he covers so much ground here.

One of his favorite topics to visit is moving to New Orleans and experiencing the city and especially the city's food first as a tourist and then as a visitor and then as a newcomer and then as a regular in the know who knows things and has developed strong opinions like a native, even though he knows he's not quite entitled to those, but hear him out.

But he also writes about just really sweet things about his mother and her cooking. Actually, he has a whole collection that maybe a mother-daughter book club may enjoy reading together, called something like The Greatest Cook in the World. I'm not sure I have the title exactly right. But the best cook in the world is his mama.

[00:49:34] There's an essay in this book, My Southern Journey, about her cornbread, but he talks about going on book tour and visiting new places and going fishing, and I don't care about fishing, but I want to listen to Rick Bragg tell me about fishing and football and the troubles he has gotten into trying to fix up his house and repair things when he doesn't know what he's doing and also natural disasters.

There's like a whole range of tone here. He's often wistful, often really funny, touching. I think that like, "Yes, let's please go get a cup of coffee and a cocktail and keep telling me stories and warm my heart," I think that describes his work. I got to tell you, I haven't read it yet, but so many readers have told me amazing things about his book. It's called The Speckled Beauty. It is about his dog. And I've been told that it is perhaps the best thing he's ever written. So that is on my list, but I haven't read it yet. Madeline, how's any of this sounding?

[00:50:30] MADELINE: This is perfect. I did not even consider the angle of a book of essays as something for our book club, but that sounds great. And my mom is very much a dog person. So the dog book might be one that we'd try as well. But I love the idea that the first one you described, My Southern Journey, references New Orleans, but it's kind of situated within stories about the South in general. That is something, maybe people realize this, but New Orleans is very different than Southern culture, I would say. Even though we're located in the South, we're kind of our own culture. So this sounds like a book that might capture that and sort of compare that really well.

ANNE: Well, I hope so. Gosh, this one just sounds like it would be really fun to talk about with a fellow reader, especially one that you know well.

MADELINE: Yes, I would love to.

[00:51:24] ANNE: You said that maybe taking a chance on something off your beaten path could be good. There's a book that's not set exclusively in New Orleans, though it does have some key moments in the book's climax and resolution in the city. It's by Lou Berney. It's called November Road. It's like a noir mystery set following the assassination of JFK in '63. Is this one you know or do you have any idea if your mom might have read this either?

MADELINE: I have not read it or heard of it, but I don't know if my mom has. It sounds like a really great overlap of our tastes, though.

ANNE: Now, when you said that you don't do a lot of crime yourself and you don't do a lot of scary stuff, I mean, this is a book about bad people doing bad things. But what happens is a street guy from a New Orleans mob boss develops a conscience along the way in this story, so you do have the villain with a heart of gold angle that does come in. So maybe that makes the tone feel a little better.

[00:52:30] But this book is dark, even though it's not particularly... like grizzly things happen, but the descriptions are pretty brief. But what happens is JFK is shot and this guy, our protagonist, knows things that makes him a liability to the people in charge. So, he hits the road, goes on the run, and then he falls in love. I think he falls in love in Vegas, but I might be wrong about that. It's been a long time since I read it. But what this is, is a love story mixed in with a tale of organized crime and a road trip tale because we have a guy on the run who's trying to outrun his past and the bad dudes.

This is one of those books in which you find yourself rooting for the bad guy because you can see the good guy within him and how he wants to change. This is fast-paced. The journey is clear. He spends some time figuring out, "What do I do now?" But then it kicks into gear and we're going.

[00:53:33] This is a very plotty book where you get to know the characters, but also it's a real page-turner in that he's got to get going, or he's going to get caught up with, and then he's done. But the reader also wants to know what happens next. There's some darkly funny comic relief. You see what happens with the love story. Oh, in New Orleans... we got to talk about New Orleans, which is not the only setting, but a key setting in this book. How's all this sounding for you and your mom?

MADELINE: I think this one would be awesome for both of us. I, despite being a scaredy cat, the fact that this takes place in the past makes it feel less scary.

ANNE: You're not going to like round the corner run into these guys.

MADELINE: Exactly. The historical element makes it feel a little bit more removed from my day-to-day in a way that I think I could really enjoy this. And I think my mom would really enjoy this too because it feels true and is really tied to true events, even if the story is fiction. Is it fiction?

ANNE: It is fiction.

[00:54:40] MADELINE: I think that this could hit the notes for her with the true crime, but maybe not completely true crime, and for me, with the New Orleans component, but still set in the past where it's not too scary.

ANNE: Okay. I like that for you. We're not going to go deep, but three more I thought we might talk about with New Orleans connections. Persephone Oysters was published a couple years ago, and that's about an oyster farming family on the bayou. We talked about The Pelican Brief by John Grisham that has key scenes in the city of New Orleans. And then Isabel Allende has a historical novel called Island Beneath the Sea that moves back and forth in time and place between Haiti's sugar plantations and the more refined parlors of New Orleans. So put those in your hopper too.

But of the books we talked about today, I'm still curious to hear what you think might land best with you and your mom. So we talked about The Yellow House by Sarah M. Broom, you thought maybe a reread, and you're not sure if your mom's read that, How the Word Is Passed by Clint Smith, Rick Bragg (everything, especially My Southern Journey, perhaps is a good way in), and then the noir thriller November Road by Lou Berney. Okay, Madeline, what do you think?

[00:56:02] MADELINE: I am really excited about all of these, but I think November Road would be a perfect one to start with. I think it really hits both of our tastes in different ways, and will also stretch each of us a little bit to read something that... while it has elements that we would typically read, maybe is a little bit outside of what we might pick up by ourselves, which in my mind was sort of the point of this. We get to read books that we are interested in, but maybe wouldn't have picked up on our own. So this one seems like it really fits the bill for that.

ANNE: Okay, that's not what I expected, but I love that for you. I hope your book club is a blast. I'd love to hear more about it. Please let me know how it goes. Madeline, thanks so much for coming on the show. It's been a pleasure.

MADELINE: Thank you. I was so excited to be here, and I can't wait to add these to my TBR.

[00:56:59] ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Madeline, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Madeline on Instagram, Substack, and Goodreads. We have those links as well as the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

We are on Instagram at @whatshouldireadnext. For regular updates on our show, sign up for emails at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter, or opt into any emails you'd like at modernmrsdarcy.com/subscribe.

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And thank you to the people who make the show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.