[00:00:00] MADELYN KRESINSKE: Maybe it would be helpful to know that my reading sin is that I always read the last page of every single book before I start it.
ANNE BOGEL: It's not a sin! It is good to know.
MADELYN: Does that make it all make sense? I like to know what I'm getting myself into and who I'm rooting for.
ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Today we're talking all things books and reading and doing a little literary matchmaking with one guest.
Readers, this week is a weird anniversary. It's the fifth anniversary of my book Don't Overthink It. I gotta say it's been a weird five years but what a great time for overthinking. I know it's not just me.
[00:01:06] Don't Overthink It is full of practical ideas on how to tame your inner questioner, stop second-guessing yourself, and bring more joy to your life. Of course, it's about interrupting negative thought patterns but it's also a fun and joyful read because the book guides you to think expansively about how you can welcome more good stuff into your life without a lot of effort.
I wrote this from my personal experience as an overthinker. The book saved me in the early pandemic days and I still turn to it and its principles all the time, relying on what I learned when I'm making decisions both big, like right now I'm guiding my high school senior through the final stages of deciding where she's going to go to college next year, and also small stuff like how to spend my Saturday morning or if I want the travel insurance they sell you at the end of the booking process or when to squeeze in that haircut I really, really need.
If your thinking feels repetitive, unhealthy, or unhelpful, if you're stuck in a cycle of what-ifs plagued by indecision or paralyzed by fear of getting it wrong, or if you could just use a boost of happy in your everyday rhythms, Don't Overthink It is for you. Pick up a copy and start creating new, positive thought patterns that will bring more peace, joy, and love into your life.
[00:02:11] Don't Overthink It is available from all the online booksellers or through your local indie. Or five years on, there's probably not much of a wait at your local library. Whatever outlet you choose, I hope you'll check out Don't Overthink It today.
Readers, my guest today is a mood reader who often finds herself falling down a reading rabbit hole, and in our conversation, we're going to explore a topic she's especially interested in right now.
Madelyn Kresinske is an elementary school librarian, wife, and mom whose life, as you'll hear, spans the Virginia and North Carolina border. She reads widely from middle-grade and picture books to romance, family dramas, and more.
Madelyn doesn't hate her pattern of falling into sometimes a rut, sometimes a really pleasant rabbit hole, but sometimes she does find it tough to break out and figure out which title to read next. We'll touch on that today, that's relevant to Madelyn's reading life, but we'll spend most of our time exploring a theme she's especially interested in right now.
[00:03:06] This summer, her family is taking a big road trip out west, and she would love both fiction and non-fiction titles that will captivate her attention while also getting her ready for this big trip and helping set the tone for it. I have so many ideas for her, I can't wait for you to listen.
Let's get to it.
Madelyn, welcome to the show.
MADELYN: Thanks for having me, I'm so excited.
ANNE: Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm so excited to talk today about your books and about the big trip you have in the works that... You know what? I won't say more right now. So thank you for coming on.
Madelyn, we'd love to start by giving the reader a glimpse of who you are. Can you tell me a little about yourself?
MADELYN: So I live in North Carolina. If anyone has ever traveled to the Outer Banks, you pass by my little town. I am an elementary school librarian. During the day I teach at a private school in Virginia, so I do commute into a different state. I get to teach first, second, and third graders, but our lower school serves all the way up to sixth grade, and our school goes all the way up to twelfth.
[00:04:07] I feel very lucky to have the job I have. I wake up every day, very excited to go to work. It is never a dull day. Our school truly has a population of very spirited and invested readers. And I feel like we're at a place, unfortunately, where some people can't say that.
I start my day with hundreds of students in the library because we have morning checkout. So it is a cold dip in the joyful chaos pool, as I like to say. It really starts your day off. There's no turning back once you've started your day like that. And then I teach 40-minute classes. And because of the setup of our school, I really get to just be a librarian, but I also get to teach kind of in that traditional librarian sense, which a lot of the schools around here aren't doing that anymore.
ANNE: Like, what did you teach about this week?
MADELYN: So right now we're getting ready for our visiting author. So Jason Chin will be visiting us.
ANNE: Oh, my gosh. That's so fun.
[00:05:11] MADELYN: I know. It's very exciting. Perks of being a librarian. So he's going to be with us. So we're just getting the students really excited. We kind of get these authors to be like rockstar status. So we've had Christina Soontornvat. We've had Hena Khan. This year, it's Jason Chin. So right now we are reading his books to get excited for his visit.
I am a mom to a third grader. She is eight and keeps me on my toes. She, unfortunately, is a reluctant reader. So the rumors aren't true. Just because you're a librarian doesn't mean your child is going to want to pick up a book. We try. She really loves her graphic novels. That's her key bookish genre.
ANNE: That's fantastic. And I bet you know how to help her find them.
MADELYN: I do. I try. Let's see. If I'm not reading, I am pelotoning. I love to run and ride my peloton. I'm usually scrolling Rent the Runway because I love my... I do my clothes swaps every month. I get to swap out my wardrobe. It's a really fun part of my day to get dressed in the morning.
[00:06:18] I recently learned how to crochet. So I am doing a book blanket for this year. So I'm going to make a square to represent the cover of each one of the books that I read this year.
ANNE: What? Okay, tell us more about that. What's an example of how you'd fashion a square to represent the cover of a specific book?
MADELYN: So I kind of came up with a pattern. I literally just learned. My mom taught me. It's something that her mom taught her. And so we're just kind of passing on the tradition. So I have the center squares, kind of the basic, like the main color that you see on the cover. And then I'm doing two rows of a highlighted color and then three rows of another color, and then it finishes with one color on the outside.
ANNE: Oh, that sounds so cool. Are you going to know the code when you look at the blanket? Are you going to remember?
MADELYN: I'm going to put them in order that I read them.
ANNE: What? Oh my gosh. Are there pictures?
MADELYN: There will be.
[00:07:16] ANNE: Okay. Please share. We need to see this. I don't crochet, but my daughter crochets. She did it because of a book. I gave her Sutton Foster's Hooked, her memoir about Broadway and musical theater and also crafting for Christmas a couple years ago. And she was like, "Yep, this sounds like a good idea. Let's learn to crochet." So I should get her to teach me to make granny squares and then I could make a book cover blanket.
MADELYN: There you go.
ANNE: I mean, not to get on your lawn and all, but you're an inspiration, Madelyn.
MADELYN: Oh, thank you. No, it's really fun to listen to your audiobooks while you're doing it. Maybe it's the librarian in me. I love very monotonous tasks. Anytime we do inventory at the end of the year, I kind of loathe it, but I also kind of love it because it's the same thing over and over again. So crocheting kind of feels like that for me. You have to think about it, but you don't have to think about it at the same time.
ANNE: So if I like jigsaw puzzles, I may like a similar kind of vibe?
MADELYN: Yes. I'm staring at my puzzle table in my library room right now.
[00:08:16] ANNE: I was wondering if I need to crochet if I do jigsaws, but you do both.
MADELYN: No, I do both. I'm an old lady in a 30-something body. I love to cross-stitch. I love to crochet now. I do puzzles. I constantly have a puzzle going. I'm reading a physical book and I'm sneaking my e-book while I'm laying in bed and I'm listening to my audiobook in the car. Lots of homebody stuff. I'm a true introvert for sure.
ANNE: Tell me about your metaphorical security blanket because when I read that in your submission, I went, "Oh, yes, this is familiar to me." My family started calling my Kindle my security Kindle because I never want to leave home without it. I want it in my purse just in case it makes me feel ready.
MADELYN: I carry a book with me everywhere. It doesn't matter where we're going. There is a book that is going to come in the car or in my bag even if I know 100% that I'm not going to be reading it.
[00:09:14] I take a book to work with me to the library where I know I am not going to have a time during the school day, but it just makes me feel better to know that I have it in case I need it or in case I find time. If my daughter wants to go to aftercare and I have a few minutes, I can open up my book. Driving to her basketball games, I have a book in the car because you never know when you're going to get stuck at a bridge around here and you need your book.
ANNE: You need your book.
MADELYN: I did it as a kid too. I used to take books to restaurants. It was my entertainment always.
ANNE: Okay. This is new for me, but very familiar territory for you. What do you enjoy reading?
MADELYN: All sorts of stuff. I will read contemporary romance. I like dysfunctional family. Who doesn't?
ANNE: Lots of people actually.
MADELYN: Well, okay.
ANNE: No, I'm laughing about that because I get emails from readers that say, "Anne, we know you love the dysfunctional family stories, but they stress me out. But I really love that cozy fantasy rack from last week. Thank you."
[00:10:16] MADELYN: Yeah. I mean, dysfunctional family kind of makes you feel better about your own problem sometimes because they're so much more elevated in the books that you can just be like, Oh, okay. Yesterday wasn't that big of a deal.
Recently, I've discovered I like narrative nonfiction. If you'd asked me, what's your reading genre? A couple of years ago, I would have never put that in the box.
ANNE: Okay. It sounds like there's a whole story there. Are we going to hear it later?
MADELYN: I think it's going to show up in the books that I've picked.
ANNE: Okay. I'm excited to hear it. I love that new discovery for you.
MADELYN: I don't really like horror. You won't really find me reading those. Occasionally, I'll pick up a thriller. And then I don't know, I find myself with these books that, I guess, serendipitous, that they find me when they do, because I think back to them. And I'm like, this would have never worked if I'd read this this year. Or this would have never worked for me if I didn't listen to it on audiobook.
[00:11:13] I have a lot of those that I know I wouldn't have made it through if I had to physically read the book, which is interesting. A couple like Lauren Groff's Vaster Wilds. I loved that book so much last year, but I don't know that I would have gotten through it if I hadn't listened to it.
ANNE: That's so interesting. I'm glad you listened to it.
MADELYN: I did. I loved it. It was great.
ANNE: Okay, well, I'm excited to hear more about that. Well, we get to do two big things today. Madelyn, we're going to explore your reading taste, just for fun, talk about what you love and what you don't and see if... I'm not sure that you really have anything to suss out. Do you feel like you do?
MADELYN: I mean, I find myself in rabbit holes with reading. And I think I put on my submission that I thought I was a moody reader, moody in like an emotional reader based on how I'm currently feeling. But I don't know. I also think that I deep dive sometimes. Like my husband jokes, he's like, "All right, I already see your wheels turning. Like, don't let the idea get ahead of you." Because I'll just come up with all these different things that I can go look up now.
[00:12:17] When we talk about the road trip, that kind of is part of the road trip plans was me going down a rabbit hole. But I find myself in these like sticky traps where I'm reading the same thing. And I think I'm kind of looking for the same thing out of the book but then I need to cleanse my way out of it. So that's where some of my random reads come into play where I read like a contemporary romance just to palate cleanse a little bit before I decide what my next turn is going to be. But the next turn is always where I get stuck. Like, where do I go from here?
ANNE: Ooh, okay. I'm excited to hear more about that. I'd love to start by diving into your books, if you're good with that.
MADELYN: That sounds great.
ANNE: Madelyn, you know how this works. You came today with three books you love, one you don't, what you've been reading lately and we'll branch out from there. How did you choose these?
[00:13:15] MADELYN: Well, first, I've applied to the show a couple of times. And so when I did it this year, I said, what books really stand out to me as my five stars? Because I have my favorites of all time. I have the ones that changed my life when I was a kid or a teenager. But I was like, what was fitting for me this past year?
I looked at my Goodreads list and I noticed, surprisingly, that the three books that I gave four and five stars to that really stood out were all nonfiction. And I never would have guessed that about my Goodreads even that year. But there they were, they're all nonfiction, which was a big surprise to me.
ANNE: That's so interesting. Are we gonna start there? What's the first book you love?
MADELYN: The Art Thief: A True Story of Love, Crime, and a Dangerous Obsession by Michael Finkel. It's a true crime. It's about a guy named Stéphane Breitwieser, and his girlfriend, Anne-Catherine.
[00:14:22] And they are kind of like a Bonnie and Clyde of the art world. They stole $2 billion worth of art all over Europe. So, Michael Finkel, he gets in touch with Stéphane, and actually has like letter exchanges with him, and finally gets his story. Don't know why he picked Michael Finkel, because he's not French, and Stéphane is French. But they have this exchange and he explains this whole story of his first heist.
He was never in it for the money, he always was in it for the art. So he actually lived in the attic apartment of his mom's house and he stored all of the art, like displayed it on the walls, it was out on the shelves. And he just wanted it for the pure love of having it, not for doing anything with it.
So his art heists are a little bit different than like the Isabella Stewart Gardner heist, where people actually destroyed the art, they cut it out of the canvas. This guy truly just wanted to have it because he loved it.
[00:15:38] ANNE: I just listened to this in the past year. And something I found so interesting was this little note at the end that I wish Michael Finkel would have said more about. He said that this perpetrator's crimes had very little to do with what most art crime looks like, and a lot more in common with what book theft by, I think he called it bibliomania, what that looks like. And then he moved on. And I was like, "Oh, say more. Please, say more."
MADELYN: I know. And I almost let that take me down a big rabbit hole because I think he included a reading list, or he definitely included a lot of titles of books. And I know that I bought at least three off of the list. Somehow it didn't manage to open them up yet. But that's one of those rabbit holes that I could live in for sure.
ANNE: Okay, so you loved this book.
MADELYN: I did. I mean, it wasn't... okay. So compared to writing-wise, I can't really comment on how well he wrote this book.
[00:16:37] ANNE: Because it wasn't the point for you, right?
MADELYN: Wasn't the point. I have an art history degree so I do have an interest in the art world. I always find myself back in the art world somehow, whether it's reading or just getting my hands creative at school. But I just couldn't believe that this person was able to get away with over 200 heists without being caught. And he was just doing it in broad daylight. There was no planning. There was no, you know, inside job breaking and entering. He was going into the museums, like he was on a date with his girlfriend, and simply taking the art.
ANNE: Sorry, I'm laughing because I'm like picturing the scenes in the book where it's like, you know, you just take it off the wall when the guard is turned and put it under your overcoat and just keep strolling.
MADELYN: Stick it in your waistband.
ANNE: Okay, so this showed you a surprising real thing about the world that you didn't know existed.
[00:17:35] MADELYN: Well, I mean, obviously new art heists were present. The Isabella Stewart Gardner heist is very fascinating to me, because it still to this day hasn't been solved. But this art heist just felt so different from ones that you are aware of, that it just felt really compelling.
I wanted to know his whys, I almost wanted to psychologically analyze Breitweiser just to understand more about his philosophy on art, and who should see it, and who should display it, and who should have it, and why, and what is art for. It was very fascinating to me.
ANNE: Okay, that's an intriguing start for me. What's the second book you love, Madelyn?
MADELYN: So the second book I love is a little bit different. It's called The Age of Magical Overthinking: Notes on Modern Irrationality by Amanda Montell. So Amanda Montell, people might recognize her name because she is the host of Sounds Like a Cult podcast and the Magical Overthinkers podcast.
[00:18:43] She has a couple books. One of them is cultish, and it's like the language of cults, and how that affects the way that people think. That's a whole other rabbit hole. But this book in particular, I don't know, it was very validating because I myself, I know you are very much into enneagrams, I am a five, wing six. So I am troubleshooter, problem-solver to my core. If you tell me something, this, you need this, I'm going to find it, the wheels start turning immediately. I love connecting the dots. I never write in books, ever, but this one is covered in my handwriting.
ANNE: That says a lot.
MADELYN: It does. So it really dives into cognitive biases and just the way that we have so much information. And it's causing us to overthink, but also at the same time, nothing is quite making sense. She has a great quote in the book.
[00:19:47] It says, we are living in what they call the information age, but life only seems to be making less sense. And when I read that, it just spoke to me. It hit me. I have a major tendency to overthink, overanalyze. I don't know. I might be diagnosed with anxiety, if you really dive deep into it. I overthink every conversation that I have with everyone, like an hour later, I'm still going, Man, why did I say it like that? So this book, it just hit home for me.
ANNE: And I wonder if it has in common with The Art Thief, that it raised really interesting questions for you that you cared about.
MADELYN: Definitely. And again, I think it all connects like why that person was thinking the way that they were thinking. And now that I'm sitting here talking to you about this, I really love character-driven novels, and really getting to know what someone's why is and why their why is that why, if that makes sense.
ANNE: I think it does.
[00:20:48] MADELYN: So it actually do kind of align when I think about it that way. There were just so many interesting facts. I remember reading this book, and I'd be like, my husband, his name is Trey, I'd be like, "Trey, you have to stop, you have to listen to this. This makes so much sense. If you think about how this person does this, or this family member does this, like it all makes sense. This is why they think the way that they think." So it was just kind of a fun.
ANNE: And that's really satisfying for you.
MADELYN: It was. It was. Yeah.
ANNE: Okay. What's the third book you love?
MADELYN: Okay, so we're gonna go back to the art world.
ANNE: Love it.
MADELYN: This is called The Mona Lisa Vanishes: A Legendary Painter, a Shocking Heist, and the Birth of a Global Celebrity. It's written by Nicholas Day. And it has illustrations by Brett Helquist. This is actually a middle-grade nonfiction. It won the Seibert medal last year, so that means it is the best informational book for kids of 2024.
[00:21:50] It is about the Mona Lisa being stolen from the Louvre. This happened in 1911. And prior to this heist, the Mona Lisa was nothing special. It took it being stolen from the museum for people to start paying attention to it. I love the way that Nicholas Day approached this topic. He made it approachable.
I have kids in the library who have read it and they're really into it. I have parents that read it and they enjoyed it. It's kind of cheeky the way that he wrote it. So he goes back and forth between the person who committed the heist, his perspective, and then it goes into the people who were, you know, looking into the heist and all the things they did wrong and all the wrong people they were accusing, including Pablo Picasso, which that was a fun fact to know that he was actually one of the people that was fingers pointed at for stealing the Mona Lisa. He did not. He did steal other things from the Louvre though, which made me kind of laugh.
[00:22:58] But then Nicholas Day also goes into who is the Mona Lisa. So Lisa Gherardini, and he kind of ties all of their stories. And so it's multiple perspectives, it's jumping each chapter from this person's story to this person's story, and connecting them like, how did this all happen? All of these other things had to happen for this to align. And why we are all so obsessed with the Mona Lisa at this point, it's all because this heist happened.
ANNE: I'm just noticing what you said about surprising connections and making your experience of the world of the art world of art history makes sense in a way that it didn't before.
MADELYN: Mm-hmm.
ANNE: Oh, those are fun to work with. Now, Madelyn, what was a book that wasn't a good fit for you?
MADELYN: So this is going to feel like left field after hearing about those three.
ANNE: I'm ready.
MADELYN: It's called The Fury by Alex Michaelides. This is a thriller, ex-movie star, and all of their famous friends that all kind of seem to hate each other, but also kind of love each other, but also maybe love to hate each other.
[00:24:03] So our narrator is Elliot, and from the start, you know that he is not a reliable narrator. He's a playwright. I think the book, if I remember correctly, is set up kind of like a screenplay. So I don't know if it was the format that really threw me off or the fact that Elliot felt like he didn't really know himself.
And maybe now that we've talked about me wanting to understand the way people think, maybe Elliot didn't even know how he was thinking. And that's what threw me off. I read it. I didn't stop myself. Once I'm 100 pages into a book, I can't. I've invested too much time. So I have to finish. I know that's a bad habit, but I do it. I just... I don't know. It was okay. But I don't know that I'll ever pick up another book that's like that. Maybe it's unreliable narrator for me. I like to know that the person's telling me what they're truly thinking.
ANNE: What did you hope it would be? When you picked it up, what kind of reading experience were you hoping to discover?
[00:25:10] MADELYN: I liked the idea that the format was different. I like epistolary novels. I love novels in verse, especially all the middle-grade novels in verse that are coming out. I like the different format. And so I think I picked it up thinking like, Oh, this will be a cool way to read this story, it being written like a play. I think there's like act one, act two. I love short chapters, because it feels like you could just keep going. And I know that chapters in that book were very short at times. And so I think I thought it was going to be a breezy thriller set on a beautiful Greek island. And that is not what it was.
ANNE: That's helpful. Thank you. Madelyn, what have you been reading lately?
MADELYN: Oh, okay. So I'm just-
ANNE: I'm hearing "it's hard to narrow it down".
[00:26:02] MADELYN: Hard to narrow it down. I'm constantly reading. So the list is ever-changing. But I did just finish Wild Dark Shore by Charlotte McConaghy. This will be brand new in March. It already feels like it might be one of my favorite books of the year.
ANNE: That's fun.
MADELYN: I know. It takes place on Shearwater Island. I think that the author was kind of mimicking Macquarie Island. It's an island that's between Australia and Antarctica. There's research stations. There's, you know, no civilization. This book is about the family that lives there, that kind of holds down the fort in between the researchers.
I think the dad he kind of runs... keeps the lighthouse going. And these people are responsible for deciding what plants the world should still have. So I think we're dealing with a climate crisis. And it just felt... I don't know, it was exciting.
[00:27:08] That also feels like a very character-driven novel, because you kind of get to understand all of the Salt family's perspectives of what's going on on the island. And there is a little bit of a sprinkle of mystery in there. This woman washes up onto the shore and... I don't know. I was pulled in immediately in the first chapter. It was great.
ANNE: Okay. I have a clarifying question for you. In the Alex Michaelides, you didn't like-
MADELYN: Oh.
ANNE: My jotted note said that you found the unreliable narrator no fun. Those were not your words.
MADELYN: No.
ANNE: But that was not satisfying to you. It sounded like it made you feel uneasy. And when you couldn't trust the person, you couldn't really understand why their why was their why. And you wanted to know the answer to that question.
In Wild Dark Shore, the characters aren't unreliable to the reader, perhaps, but we see them keeping a lot of secrets. They're not being forthcoming.
MADELYN: No, not with each other, at least.
[00:28:13] ANNE: So that's a distinction for you. One worked, the other didn't.
MADELYN: Yes.
ANNE: This all makes sense to you?
MADELYN: Yes.
ANNE: Okay.
MADELYN: Because Elliot's telling us the story in the theory, and he's not giving you his purpose, right? We think we know why he's on the island, but that's not really why he's on the island with the friends. We know from the beginning-
ANNE: They're both island books. I didn't put that together.
MADELYN: They're both island books. Yes. But when the woman washes up on the shore, we quickly find out who she's there to see, why she came, why she was on the boat in the first place. Like we know that very early on in the book.
ANNE: So you want to figure out the motivations and the nuances thereof, and you want to be working with accurate information as you seek to figure this out.
MADELYN: Maybe it would be helpful to know that my reading sin is that I always read the last page of every single book before I start it.
ANNE: It's not a sin. It is good to know.
MADELYN: Does that make it all make sense? I like to know what I'm getting myself into and who I'm rooting for.
[00:29:16] ANNE: I feel like that's a revealing question. You want to know if it makes sense for me, because we want it to make sense.
MADELYN: Right. But maybe it doesn't.
ANNE: I mean, I do want my stories to make sense. This is accurate. We do have that in common. Does every reader? I don't know. It has to make sense in the story world.
MADELYN: I also really enjoy finding out. The authors put so much work into the foreshadowing and the red herrings that are in their herrings. And I like to appreciate that when I can find it. It almost feels like a little Easter egg. Like, oh, I see what you did there. I see. And sometimes I don't think that you could appreciate it if you finish and you didn't know that you should have been looking for those things.
ANNE: I think that's true. You read a story in a different way when you know what the author is working toward.
MADELYN: Also, maybe this really speaks to my anxiety, and it just helps me to know what's going to happen at the end of the book.
ANNE: That's real. Well, thanks for exploring that with me, because it's really helpful to suss out what you find satisfaction in. And also it stresses you out as a reader. Not like in a suspenseful, ooh, what'll happen next, but in a way that is genuinely anxiety, like no fun. Unreliable narrators are no fun. Let's go back to that.
[00:30:30] MADELYN: They're no fun. I've also been reading a brand-new book called Water Moon. It is by Samantha Sotto Yambao. If you've read A Starless Sea by Erin Morgenstern, you will love this book. It has the same energy and vibes.
It's set in Tokyo, but not really in Tokyo. It's like a parallel universe of Tokyo. The main character, Hana, she runs a pawn shop, but this pawn shop doesn't deal in what our pawn shops deal in. Her pawn shop deals in regrets and mistakes and choices that we've made in our past.
Visitors to this pawn shop can only find the pawn shop if they were meant to the pawn shop. And then they trade in one of those choices or regrets. Once the story starts unfolding, literally unfolding like origami, once you read, you'll understand. And it is magical.
[00:31:37] ANNE: Once I read, I'll understand how it unfolds like origami?
MADELYN: Mm-hmm.
ANNE: That's cool.
MADELYN: Mm-hmm. It has an element, the origami piece. Great world-building. It is fantastical. It is whimsical. There's definitely a mystery afoot in this story as well.
ANNE: Well, that sounds fun.
MADELYN: I'm figuring it out. I'm about halfway through, so I'm still trying to figure it out.
ANNE: Okay. I have that downloaded in Libro, but I haven't begun it yet. You're making me want to start.
MADELYN: See, that's the thing about the audiobooks. I can't read the last page.
ANNE: Oh.
MADELYN: I'm wondering if that plays a big role into what I can get through on an audiobook versus what I can get through on a physical book.
ANNE: I mean, you could, though, if you wanted to.
MADELYN: I could. I could go back.
ANNE: But you're not.
MADELYN: But I'm not.
ANNE: Do you want to?
MADELYN: I don't know. Now that I'm this far into it, I don't. I don't know.
ANNE: Would you have wanted to in chapter two?
[00:32:34] MADELYN: Maybe. There's some characters that show up early in the book and you're like, Mm, why are you here? Who are you? Are you actually who you say you are?
ANNE: Okay. I would be interested in hearing back from you in a month to see if you ponder this and where you landed.
MADELYN: I can get back to you in a couple days. It'll be done.
ANNE: Did you hear me calculating how long you needed to ponder?
MADELYN: Yeah.
ANNE: Okay. Well, I overshot. But in a couple days, I'd be very interested in hearing. Madelyn, what are you looking for in your reading life right now?
MADELYN: So we are, as a family, heading out on a really fun vacation this summer. It was all inspired by a picture book. So I think I already mentioned that Jason Chin is our visiting author at school. One of his books is called Grand Canyon, and my daughter, that was her grade level summer reading assigned book.
[00:33:35] So we read it. I read it because he was coming. And I read all of the author's books when they visit our school. And we were just so excited. We live on the East Coast, the farthest west I've ever been is Chicago. So I am not very worldly in terms of travel. Her first plane ride was this last summer. So it'll be quite an adventure for all of us.
But we are heading to... the Grand Canyon ultimately is our destination but we are kind of taking a road trip to get there.
ANNE: Whoa.
MADELYN: Once we land in Phoenix, it becomes a road trip adventure for a couple of days.
ANNE: And you need road trip book racks.
MADELYN: I do. So as I've said, I kind of go into these rabbit holes with the books that I... especially nonfiction books that can just really take me on a deep dive. So I'm hoping to kind of set myself up into a rabbit hole with some books that take place in the West. Arizona, Utah, Grand Canyon, Zion, Bryce, those national parks. That is where we are going to land. And I would just love to have some fun backstory and facts and just kind of understand the setting.
[00:34:48] I can look at pictures of where we're going, but again, I have never been on that side of the country. So I kind of just want to be able to dive into it.
ANNE: I love this. Okay, Madelyn, the listeners don't know that you and I talked beforehand. And I said, I don't know how the books you love and don't are going to connect to trip recommendations. We'll just have to see. But oh my gosh, I'm so glad we had that conversation about your books.
So you want to know why people were thinking the way they were thinking, why is their why their why. You really enjoy surprising connections. You like learning things. You like books that raise fascinating questions. I heard you talk about your Enneagram five wing six troubleshooter, problem solver brain. You enjoy connecting dots. You're driven to understand things. And what you said about the narrators is helpful as well. So thank you for giving me this little window into your readerly brain. Oh gosh.
And I was wondering about the rabbit hole concept, which sounds like a lot of fun versus sticky trap.
[00:35:53] MADELYN: Rabbit hole. I love Alice in Wonderland. That's where the rabbit hole comes from.
ANNE: Well, I wondered if the trap was really a trap when you called it a sticky trap, but then the way you described it and how it's hard to get out, but you want to, made me think.
MADELYN: It's like honey, right? Like it's sweet. You could stay there. But it's also kind of sticky. And when you want to get out, you need to get out. But sometimes it's hard to say no.
ANNE: Well, you said contemporary romance was often a pivot point for you. And... wait, why am I getting you out of the rabbit hole you're not in yet? Okay. I have confidence based on your readerly history that you can get out of this. And there's like some fun contemporary romance set in the West too, because you've said that that's an exit point before. But can we like jump into the canyon?
MADELYN: Yeah, let's do it.
[00:36:40] ANNE: There's such a wide variety of kinds of books. Like you've referenced that you read YA and middle grade, and you love audiobooks and nonfiction and fiction, and sometimes mystery and suspense. There's all kinds of great stuff.
I feel like I should give you a big disclaimer. We're talking about maybe going to the Grand Canyon this summer, but I've never been. I've leapfrogged over that part of the country to get to the far West Coast from spending a lot of time with a family in Colorado. But gosh, I'd love to go. And I've loved reading about it. And I've got some good recs for you, I think.
Let's start with narrative nonfiction. And we could talk about narrative nonfiction for a long time. But for spot-on about the Grand Canyon history, mystery, nature, present-day circumstances, the extremes of the place, I love Kevin Fedarko for you. Have you read A Walk in the Park or The Emerald Mile?
MADELYN: No, I haven't.
[00:37:36] ANNE: I think you're really going to like his writing. You mentioned that you loved, say, The Art Thief, not because you were lingering over the prose, but because it was a fascinating information package. But... I'm going to read you the beginning of The Emerald Mile. I got a sentence ready because it's good.
This is dated in June 1983. "On any given evening in summer, but most notably in late June, there comes a moment just after the sun has disappeared behind the rimrock and just before the darkness has tumbled down the walls when the bottom of the Grand Canyon gives itself over to a moment of muted grace that feels something like an act of atonement for the sins of the world." Do you want to read more?
MADELYN: Yeah, that sounds lovely.
ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. The Emerald Mile is this fascinating, just epic feeling story of what Fedarko calls the fastest ride in history through the Grand Canyon. The Emerald Mile is actually a little bitty boat that ran the entire length of the Colorado River through the Grand Canyon during this huge flood that happened in 1983.
[00:38:39] But the one I really want to linger on, because it's about the park, in the broader sense, is A Walk in the Park. It just came out last summer. He narrates his own audiobook. He does not have the kind of voice that makes you go, I could listen to him read The Phone Book. And it took me a few chapters to get used to his narrative style. But once I did, I really enjoyed hearing the story in the author's voice. That's a note for the audio lovers. And I think you're one of them, Madelyn.
MADELYN: I am.
ANNE: But this is nonfiction adventure meets memoir meets history. Fedarko and a longtime pal he's been on trips with before, who's a photojournalist, decide that they're going to celebrate the centennial of the National Park Service by doing a 750-mile end-to-end traverse, which many people call the toughest hike in the world across the Grand Canyon National Park, which Fedarko calls the most visited and least understood.
[00:39:34] One of his goals is to make it feel more understood to the reader, which really sounds like right up your alley. So they spend a whole year in the canyon. And this, I think, was the scariest book I read in 2024 because he's describing real things, just coming face-to-face with the beauty and the grandeur, but also the unforgivingness and terror of the landscape they find themselves in.
And he tells stories about the glue on their shoes melting because it gets so, so hot in the canyon, but then so cold that their boots freeze solid overnight. And more than once you think, I am so glad I know that he and his co-author, well, not co-author, but his co-traveler are still alive because I'd be so worried about them right now if I didn't know the end of the story, like that he's out on book tour. Otherwise, I think surely he cannot get out of this situation.
[00:40:28] But he also details the history of people who've explored the canyon before, what they learned, how groundbreaking it was, how difficult it was. But also he gets into the deep history of the Native peoples who've known it longest and whose land was taken to make it a national park.
He brings so many different kinds of stories and dis... like there's the history and the science and the culture, and there's some art and the adventure and the frighteningness. I mean, how is this sounding to you?
MADELYN: It sounds great. I have to admit I looked it up when you just told me, and I love that it says a misadventure in the Grand Canyon.
ANNE: Oh, does it really? That sounds perfect.
MADELYN: Because my biggest fear with this trip is not knowing what you don't know. So I've been trying to ask everybody, like, "Has anyone been to the Grand Canyon? Like, what supplies do I need to pack and check in my luggage? What do we need? I don't want to go in empty-handed."
[00:41:26] So while this book kind of sounds terrifying, it also sounds like it's going to be the perfect preparation for someone who's an overthinker. I'll make sure I have everything that he didn't and all the things that worked and none of the things that didn't.
ANNE: Wow. Okay, real quick, and then we're going to continue on that note. There was a Summer Reading Guidebook from a couple of years ago that would make an excellent companion to these two books. It's called Brave the Wild River: The Untold Story of Two Women Who Mapped the Botany of the Grand Canyon all the way back in 1938. But this is a recent history. It's by Melissa L. Sevigny, and we've talked about it on the podcast before.
But this is such a cool story about these women doing something that had never been done before, not just because it hadn't been done, like this was unexplored territory, but no one dared do it. I mean, that is embarking down the terrifying Colorado in their quest to document the region's plants. So history, culture, and really great grounding in the region that you are visiting.
[00:42:36] Okay, back to the part about being prepared and what you don't know, there's a book that many people get at the Grand Canyon gift shop. Just impulse buy, they don't know what's there and they come back and they can't stop talking about it. Often they say, "I'm so glad I didn't read this before I went, but I wouldn't have wanted to miss out on it."
It's called Over The Edge: Death in Grand Canyon. It's by Michael Patrick Ghiglieri and Thomas Myers. I heard you react.
MADELYN: Yeah. I said, Oh. I need to know more. What kind of death are we talking about here?
ANNE: I understand that it sounds morbid, but also this book is riveting. It's an account of all known fatal occurrences — I think the authors might say mishaps — at the Canyon spanning the entire era of the parking open to the public, the way it is now from 1869 with John Wesley Powell, ooh, who we might talk about in a minute, to the modern day, like around the turn of the century.
[00:43:43] So at this time, there were 550 people who died in the Canyon and it is riveting reading featuring the best of humanity and also I think it's fair to say like the best and worst are on display here. So the storytelling is amazing. The cautionary tale quotient is quite high.
I think something that's also really interesting about this book is you get the perspective from the Rangers because they're the ones on the scene responding to what happens when something goes terribly wrong in the Canyon. And it really makes you realize how hard it can be to keep people safe. If you become dehydrated at the bottom of the Canyon, then what happens? Who takes care of you? How do you get what you need? I think that perspective is also really interesting.
There are lessons here. And also there are definitely some readers who will never wanna touch this book at all or will only want to read it on their way out of town, if we can call it Grand Canyon in town.
[00:44:42] MADELYN: So it's funny that you say that because I have been Instagram stalking the Grand Canyon and the Park Ranger Instagram that they have. And they have this great video of all the things that could go wrong, all the things that you should come prepared with because if you don't, here's what could happen. And they did it... I mean, it's a serious little Instagram video, but also kind of silly in their approach.
The whole time we've been planning this trip, I'm like, am I crazy for... Because it's me, my husband, his brother, and his wife, and then our daughter. She's the only child coming. Can she hang? Can she do this? Well, what do we need to make sure that she has?
Again, as the overthinker, problem solver, troubleshooter in the group of people that will be going to the trip, maybe I should be the only person that reads this book.
ANNE: You know what? If you read it first, you get to decide.
MADELYN: I do.
[00:45:40] ANNE: Yeah. Well, I mean, not that you're responsible for everybody's literary choices, but you can play librarian.
MADELYN: Yeah, my favorite job.
ANNE: I love that. Okay, next I'm thinking of your question, why is their why their why? And with that in mind, I'm thinking of the book I Am the Grand Canyon. The subtitle is The Story of the Havasupai People. It's by Stephen Hurst.
It is focused on the Havasupai tribe. It's all about their customs and cultures of this people group that originally populated the lands that are the Grand Canyon, but were redirected to a small canyon within the larger Grand Canyon landscape.
You said that you wanted books that would orient you in the Western landscape. You're going to the canyon, to Arizona, maybe to Zion. I think Western vibes appeared in your submission. I think this could be a really great starting point to understand the history of this tribe, and also the history of them seeking restoration of their lands.
[00:46:43] What we know now is the end of the story, that they are the beneficiaries of the largest return of native lands in US history. And to do so, they fought with US Congress, the National Parks, the US Forestry Service, the Sierra Club.
It's called I Am the Grand Canyon. It is a person who says those words in the book. This is the story of their why. Why is this tribal leader saying, I am the Grand Canyon? Why were their lands so important to them? And I understand that may feel self-evident, but I found it to be more deeply meaningful knowing more of the history of the tribe. There's a lot here. It's interesting storytelling. I'm wondering how this fits into what you're imagining reading to prepare for your trip. What do you think?
MADELYN: No, I love this. While historical fiction isn't my go-to genre, I am a big history buff. Having an art history degree. When I was a little girl, I was obsessed with the American Girl dolls. I loved the back matter of those books. I love museums.
[00:47:56] I'm the person that'll sit there and read the gallery plates next to the pieces while everyone else has three rooms past me because I want to know what it is, why it's important, why it's there, who it belonged to. So this one sounds incredibly important to read and also will bring a deeper appreciation for walking those trails while we're there. That one sounds great.
ANNE: Okay, I'm glad to hear it. I mentioned we might talk about John Wesley Powell and we're not going too much. But I do want to say, since I think I'm on the record as a Wallace Stegner fan, that I only recently discovered that he has a book about John Wesley Powell. The subtitle is This Man and the Second Opening of the West. It's by Stegner. It's called Beyond the 100th Meridian. This is not one I've read yet, but I'm looking forward to enjoying it, hopefully before I go to the Grand Canyon.
Subpar Parks is a lot of fun. Do you know this book?
MADELYN: I don't.
[00:48:55] ANNE: Oh, it's silly. It's illustrated. It features one-star reviews of U.S. national parks. If you're looking for a palette cleanser that's not out of your rabbit hole, but definitely not more deep, history-laden nonfiction, that could be it. It's fun.
But I want you to know about a novel. I'm not sure that you'll enjoy it and I'm not sure how you'll weigh the elements you're looking for with ones you're not necessarily, but I'd like you to know it exists. And that is Three Keys by Laura Pritchett. Is that a book you've encountered?
MADELYN: I've never heard of it.
ANNE: Okay. This is a novel that came out last summer in 2024. And this is a tale of a midlife reckoning. I feel like I've been reading a lot of those lately. I enjoy them personally. But this is about a woman who's in her mid-50s when the three keys in her life kind of fall apart. Her husband dies. Her son goes to college, moves out, and suddenly feels very distant from her. And she feels unmoored in her work as well.
[00:49:56] But she discovers in her grief-stricken, what am I doing next, what am I going to do with my life, how am I going to find my footing, late night explorations, that she has three literal keys to properties that have been saved in a drawer for years that she and her husband once used to visit vacation spots. Two in this country and one on the other side of the world.
So she sets out on a quest that you may or may not be sympathetic to her why. She's thinking this is how she's going to rebuild. And she decide, "Well, you know what? I need to access these properties. Let's hope nobody's there. I'm going to use these keys to enter."
So she travels from her home in the Midwest, first to a cabin in Colorado, and then to a trailer in Arizona, and then finally the other side of the world to an artist studio home in New Zealand. So we know she's grieving. We know she's looking to find her footing. She's also looking for a place to reestablish herself in the world and find some sense of stability.
[00:51:02] So she's visiting these places that were important to the two of them as a couple or sometimes just to her husband and she doesn't necessarily know why. I will admit this wasn't the story I wanted it to be, but I lingered over every description of this setting.
MADELYN: That sounds interesting because it also kind of plays into the why is someone's why their why? But it's like her discovering maybe her new why, if I'm hearing what you're saying about the book correctly. So it's like an interesting turn on that question.
ANNE: Madelyn, is that a good start to your trip reading?
MADELYN: That sounds like a great start. It's going to give me a checklist. It's going to give me all of the cautionary warnings.
ANNE: So many cautionary warnings.
MADELYN: Yes. It sounds like I might be spending a lot of money at REI before we go. New shoes and camelbacks for everybody.
[00:52:01] ANNE: That sounds like a good plan. I'm so excited for your trip. I hope you find this to be a delightful rabbit hole. I love the possibilities of where you could go next with the biology or the history or the art. There's lots of art possibilities if you're reading about the West. I'm excited to see where it takes you.
MADELYN: Me too. And hopefully we get to wave to each other from the trail.
ANNE: Oh my gosh, that would be amazing. Okay, of the books we really lingered on today, they were A Walk in the Park by Kevin Fudarko, I Am the Grand Canyon by Stephen Hurst, Over the Edge, that's the Death in Grand Canyon book by Michael Patrick Ghiglieri and Thomas Myers, and then Three Keys by Laura Pritchett. Of those books, where do you think you might jump in?
MADELYN: I think I'm going to start with A Walk in the Park because that one sounds like it's going to maybe lead me down a lot of other rabbit holes of preparation for our trip.
ANNE: I think it might. I love that plan for you. Thank you so much for being so generous and sharing your travels and your reading life with us today. I really enjoyed our conversation.
[00:53:05] MADELYN: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to dive into the canyon reading.
ANNE: Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Madelyn, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Let us know by leaving a comment at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.
And we always list every title we talk about in the episode for you. We don't want you to feel like you have to remember when you're driving or washing dishes. You can tell when I listen to my podcasts, right? Go to whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com to tell us what you think Madelyn may enjoy reading next and check out those show notes, including all the books we talked about today.
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Thanks to the people who made this episode happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wilkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Productions. Readers, that is it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.
English (US) · 