[00:00:00] HOLLY WIELKOSZEWSKI: I've been told by a lot of people that that would be a great starting point for me with her writing. And when I say a lot of people, I mostly mean you in the podcast.
ANNE BOGEL: I didn't know we were having those conversations, but I'm happy to discover that.
Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read.
[00:00:34] I'm so excited about the direction this week's conversation about books and reading is going to go because at long last, I am going in-depth on the reading life with one of our team members in a way that we've done with everybody else. But Holly, today is your day. It's going to be great.
Readers, if you love hearing from team members, like you will today, you will love our Patreon community because we do that a lot more over there. This is a place where our team members regularly pop up for bonus episodes.
Sometimes they do solo episodes like their chosen one great book series episodes, or they're in conversation with each other, doing things like a deep dive on the mystery and thriller genre like just happened.
We also had bonus team best books coming up and a bonus team-focused mid-year check-in that just happened over there. When you join, you can listen to all those episodes at any time.
[00:01:30] We've also started up a genre-focused series. That's the one I was just mentioning over on Patreon, where we take a closer look at popular genres and offer readers our starter guide to help them explore new-to-them areas of the bookstore or library. So far, we've shared that mystery thriller starter guide plus one on the romance genre, and there are more on the way.
Our Patreon community is a fun way to get even more book talk in your life. And when you join us as a monthly or annual supporter, you're also making a tangible contribution to our show and our ability to create new episodes each week. Y'all help us in such a practical, tangible way, and we're so grateful.
Thank you to everyone who's already signed up. And if you'd like to know more to maybe sign up yourself, get all the details at patreon.com/whatshouldireadnext.
Now for today, readers, today's guest has joined me in conversation on the podcast a few times, but Holly, you have never been in the spotlight like you will be today.
[00:02:31] And I'm so excited to be joined today by Holly Wielkoszewski, who is our media production specialist. Those of you who know Holly's reading tastes, well, you're already extra excited that she's here today because you know she reads a lot of fantasy and sci-fi, genres that are often lumped together in literary conversations.
So when Holly mentioned at a recent team meeting that she's shifting away from fantasy and more towards sci-fi in her reading life lately, well, I got really curious and wanted to hear more.
Today, we're talking about Holly's evolving journey as a sci-fi fantasy devotee, the trend she's seeing in today's books, and some of her very favorites in these genres. We'll also explore what appeals to Holly most about these types of books, as well as perhaps her non-science fiction fantasy reading. And we'll recommend lots of titles that readers who resonate with Holly might also enjoy reading. I can't wait. Let's get to it.
[00:03:25] Holly, welcome to the show.
HOLLY: It's such a pleasure to be here, Anne. Thank you.
ANNE: Oh my gosh. I've been looking forward to this for a long time, and I'm so excited it's finally happening. Okay, Holly, you know how we roll around here. We often start by just inviting readers to give us a glimpse of who they are.
We just want to know the various kinds of people that we share this love of reading with and, you know, what they do when they're not talking books, where they are in the world. Would you give us a glimpse of who you are?
HOLLY: Absolutely. So my name's Holly Wielkoszewski, as you all know. I have currently split my time. I am based in New Mexico, in a little kind of corner of New Mexico in the middle of nowhere, where my husband and I are building an Earthship. That's a whole other thing we could talk about, but we're not going to today.
ANNE: I mean, don't leave us hanging on that.
[00:04:19] HOLLY: I think it actually lines up really well with the things we're going to talk about today, because it's sort of this futuristic, but also very grounded model of building that's in concert with the Earth. So lots of fun things to say about that. But we are building an Earthship, living off-grid here on solar power and water catchment.
And then when I'm not in New Mexico, I live the digital nomad life, usually a few months out of the year and get to put up with... well, the team gets to put up with me chiming in at all sorts weird hours of the day as I'm joining meetings from Indonesia at 2 a.m. my time. We're doing fun things like that.
So it's a bit of a hybrid life that I have put together that has been the result of many years of doing just sort of more normal things.
My husband was in the military for many years. We bounced around a lot in that chapter of life. I worked in the government. I've had a lot of different jobs and worn a lot of different hats.
[00:05:16] And about, gosh, almost eight or nine years ago now, I guess, I started working for myself and doing technical digital consulting. And that's what eventually led me to apply to my position here with the show as the media production specialist.
So it's a great alignment of my passion for books and reading, obviously, and also my interest in all the technical things that work on the back end of shows and productions, and projects like this. So that's a little bit of who I am and where I am and what I do.
As far as reading, oh my goodness, where do I even start? That's always the question, right? Yeah. I mean, as with everyone that comes on the show, I feel like I've always been a reader. Books have always been such an important part of my life. I was always the kid who my mom would set up playdates with my friends and then find me hidden in the closet reading my book instead of actually being social.
I've overcome that challenge in my life. I'm able to be a social person now. But yeah, I've always been drawn to stories of adventure and stories that allow me to look at the world around us in perhaps a different light. And I think that that is what has really cemented my love for the science fiction and fantasy genre over the years.
[00:06:30] And these days, I'm just always looking for new good reads that are going to draw me in and help me get curious about the world around us.
ANNE: Has science fiction and fantasy always been the place where you camped out, or was that a journey?
HOLLY: You know, it really started early for me. I've talked about this a little bit, I think, in the blog post I wrote for the Books That Shaped Me in that series, which was a lot of fun. But one of my earliest book memories is my dad reading The Chronicles of Narnia to me at night.
I think that once I sort of had this taste of magical worlds and adventures and kids that had powers and all these opportunities that were not something I saw around me in my normal life in the real world, I was like, "Okay, tell me more." A lot of my earliest reading memories are books that had some type of a magical or fantastical bent to them. You know, like, gosh, everything by Madeleine L'Engle
[00:07:27] I remember one particular book called The Girl with the Silver Eyes that had this magical young kind of sleuthy girl, I want to say. That one I haven't read in quite a long time. But those were the types of books I was always drawn to and would go and scour the local library or the school library to check out.
Then I remember a few other kind of critical moments in my young reading life. The first one is when I read Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card. And that just blew me away with the smart look at everything from, like, control to political narratives to how, you know, different children were kind of growing up in this world and taking back some power for themselves.
And then, you know, it just kind of went from there. There were The Lord of the Rings, obviously, you know, all the classics that are in this genre. And then more recently, I've really enjoyed branching out and expanding beyond sort of the classics that are wonderful. But, you know, maybe we have some room for more voices, especially in fantasy, for books that aren't written by old White men.
[00:08:27] ANNE: Well, I'm really excited to get in more today. I know that we're talking to readers who share your love and concentration in the science fiction and fantasy section of the bookstore and library, and also those who dabble occasionally and want to know, Okay, if I want to branch out, if I'm exploring more, what's good? Like, what will I like? And so I love how we are going to be able to talk about all those things today.
Holly, you mentioned at the team meeting recently that you've been shifting more from fantasy towards sci-fi, and I'm so interested in hearing what's going on here. But first... I'm often surprised by how many readers are like, "Wait, I don't... what are we talking about exactly?" Like this is why we do our starter guides over on Patreon. Like, what exactly is the genre? What kind of books are within it? What do I need to know as a reader to feel competent and competent going in?
So if you were to describe, what will we find in the fantasy sci-fi realm? What's your easy answer? Is that unfair? How do you give like a broad orientation?
[00:09:33] HOLLY: Yeah, absolutely. So, first of all, spoiler alert, we are doing a starter guide for sci-fi and fantasy later this fall. So we'll be digging into this with a lot more detail. Shannan and I are going to be working on that together, and I'm really excited about that.
But for today's purposes, I can kind of zoom us out a little bit and say, at a high level, fantasy and science fiction are basically telling stories where you are seeing things that are not actually present in our current world, right?
Science fiction is often grounded in technology and science. So you have everything from like, you know, sub-genres like cyberpunk, which is dealing with computers and hackers and technical implantations. You know, I think a great example of something that falls into that sort of universe is the Murderbot series by Martha Wells, which I know is wildly popular and a big touchpoint for a lot of our readers and listeners.
But typically you're looking at things often happening in space, but not always. As with every genre, there's a bit of spectrum, right? And a lot of these stories are also sort of in the speculative fiction genre more broadly, which is looking at things through a lens that is just slightly off from a literary fiction, right, where you have the existence that we're used to in our world and like the laws that we're accustomed to, whether that's laws of science or laws of nature or laws of our legal system, right?
[00:10:55] So with science fiction, you're taking all of that and you're saying, okay, well, what if we had a mystery, but it happened in space? What if the protagonist was a robot? What if this was something where we bio-hacked, you know, a plant and then the plant became sentient? And then what happened next?
So a lot of it deals in possibilities. And that's something I really like about science fiction. I'm sure we'll come back to that.
Whereas fantasy is much more on the magical side of things rather than the science side of things. So with fantasy, you've got wizards, you've got various races. You know, kind of the standard fantasy that I think people often think of is like the wizard and the pointy hat and elves and gnomes and weird trolls under bridges and whatnot. And that's very much can be the fantasy genre, but it also can be a lot more than that.
You look at things like magical realism that sort of bridges the gap into fantasy or stories where, you know, they're grounded in mythology or fairy tales. That's another sub-genre that I particularly really enjoy.
[00:11:52] So high level... and I tend to use a lot more words when I'm talking about these things because I get excited. So maybe it's high to medium level. That's how I would describe both of those genres for the reader who maybe hasn't looked at them more closely.
ANNE: Thank you for that. Now, one of the fun things we do around here is invite readers to look closely at their own reading lives and what interests and sometimes epiphanies are driving the books that they choose to pick up and, you know, what they enjoy, what hits and what doesn't and why.
So I'd love to come back to your shift from fantasy to more sci-fi. I know that you've reflected at length over time, but my short version to pitch to you is, Holly, what's going on here?
HOLLY: Definitely. And you totally asked me that question. I just didn't answer it at all in my last answer. So let's dive in now.
ANNE: You know, everything in the time is right. We're ready.
[00:12:49] HOLLY: Absolutely. So I think, like so many readers, I have really enjoyed and inhaled a lot of the recent fantasy and particularly romantasy books that have been having a moment. I love Sarah J. Maas. That's my popcorn reading. It's not the most incredible storytelling ever, but you know what, when I'm sitting by the side of a pool, that's what I'm reaching for. It's fun. I like it.
ANNE: Time out. Some readers are going to groan, and some are going to say, thank you, Anne. Romantasy. Please define.
HOLLY: That is actually a contentious question, right? Because-
ANNE: And I made it sound so easy.
HOLLY: No, it's all good. If we had Leigh here, I think she would be in for this conversation because there's always been fantasy romance, and then there's romantic fantasy. And now there's this romantasy genre that is kind of pushing these things, two things together and I think has kind of caused expectations for certain tropes.
[00:13:46] So, again, I think all of our readers probably know what a trope is, but if for some reason they don't, that's basically a theme or a concept that is driving a story. So for instance, in like the romance genre, which again, Leigh is so much more qualified to speak about than I am. And she has got some great bonus episodes about.
But in the romance genre, one of the tropes is one bed, like two protagonists, maybe they are starting to fall for each other already, maybe they haven't, all of a sudden, they find themselves as an inn in the woods and there's only one bed and then that becomes an instigating incident.
So just like other genres, there are these tropes that drive fantasy and science fiction books as sort of an anchor that the story can hang on. And with romantasy, I think that there started to be a lot of expectations of what that looks like.
[00:14:31] There have been love stories in fantasy books for years and years, but the way that they're coming together now feels like, to me as a reader who's read in this space for a long time, feels like it's become very formulaic. To me, it feels like the early 2000s all over again, when we had, you know, Twilight and the Hunger Games and oh my gosh, and Harry Potter to some extent. And then all of a sudden there's like all these books about vampires and books about dystopian societies.
And some of them were quite good, but it just became almost fatiguing. And this part of the genre that I really, really liked became something where I was like, oh, another book about dragons. No, I just can't.
ANNE: And this isn't specific to romantasy. This happens in every genre. People are probably pitching a book as the next whatever right now, but I'm going back to the next Gone Girl and how for a period of time that was everywhere.
HOLLY: Yes.
[00:15:27] ANNE: I think that says a lot about what you enjoy as a reader. I imagine part of that is like the discovery, the finding something new, not just the next, but like the truly inventive.
HOLLY: Absolutely.
ANNE: But I'm just making stuff up. How does that... okay, take it away.
HOLLY: No, I think that really resonates. Because I think what really kind of pushed me over the edge with this is I recently read a very popular book in this romantasy space, and I just felt like as I was reading it, I saw the like check boxes on the whiteboard that the author was following of like, "Oh, I got this. Oh, I addressed this topic. Oh, we've got this trope in there."
I just felt like there wasn't any room for that surprise and delight that we're really looking for in our reading life. That was frustrating to me. And I said, "You know, maybe I just need to press pause on this particular area of the bookstore. It's not for me right now. I can come back to it in the future."
I took a closer look at what I had been reading lately and I saw there'd been so much in this one space. And I said, "You know, I really just don't think I've read a lot of great, exciting new sci-fi stories lately. That feels like a gap. I want to intentionally return to that space and see what I can find." Because I know there's so much good storytelling happening over there right now. And I just need to bring that back in and readjust a little bit.
[00:16:42] ANNE: Yeah, that's such a powerful realization. And today we're very focused on what this means to you as a reader, Holly, and where it's leading you. Although there certainly are conversations to be had about like, what's going on here? Like, what is driving this? And Leigh and I have had some conversations about the TikTok of it all. But that's not our conversation for today.
So, Holly, as you're looking for the new, the surprising, the... I mean, you said delightful, so I won't shy away from it. You're finding this is taking you from fantasy more into sci-fi? Am I following that right?
HOLLY: That's where I'm feeling it right now. Yeah, that's where it's taking me in this moment.
ANNE: Okay, I'd love to hear more.
HOLLY: One of the things I've been doing is looking at some of the gaps in my reading. And I feel like there's so many classics of sci-fi that I have not yet read, despite reading quite a bit in this genre over the years.
[00:17:34] For instance, recently, I just finally read the first book in Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan Saga, which she's an incredibly prolific science fiction writer. I think there's like 15 books in this series alone.
This is called Shards of Honor. It was published in 1986. And I could not put it down, Anne. It was so great. It was just like, you know... and again, you know, coming back to what we just talked about, there was a love story in this book, but that's not really what it was about. It was about discovery, it was about compromise, it was about coming to terms with a relationship across different cultures and political environments.
There was intrigue. There was humor. There was so much humor. And it's not a perfect book. You know, it's from 1986 culture and society has changed a lot since then. There were a few things that I would point out to it and say, Oh, maybe that could have been done differently now.
But I haven't had that sense of ease in picking up a book and just diving in for quite some time. And I think that's the other thing that I really look for, particularly with science fiction, but also with any of my reading is just the sense of immersive world-building.
[00:18:38] That's something that when it's done well, like I don't mind doing the work for some world-building if it's going to be rewarding, and it's going to be immersive, and I'm just going to be totally consumed by this space.
And I know for some people, world-building is like a hard nope. Like, nope, don't want to do it. Take me somewhere else. I'm not interested. I completely understand that. But for me, I think that's something I'm really looking for right now.
ANNE: Okay. So if it feels like someone telling you a great story as opposed to... I don't know. Sometimes it feels like somebody has handled me an Ikea dresser with no instructions and three missing pieces and like, "Here, put this together." That's how the beginning of a heavy world-building story can feel to me sometimes.
HOLLY: Yeah.
ANNE: What I'm hearing is not that.
HOLLY: Occasionally, that works for me. I will say sometimes if I'm in the right frame of mind, then I can really appreciate the opportunity to just be dropped in the middle of something and be completely confused. And I find that that has its own reading journey and experience that I really enjoy.
[00:19:38] And I think that I see some parallels there to like my desire to travel in my real life, you know, to just be dropped in a new city where I don't speak the language and I don't understand how to get around. And it's like the art of discovering that is part of the adventure. So sometimes that does work for me, but it has to be done well also.
I think a great example I can give of this, it's actually more of a fantasy book, but it has a lot of world-building and a lot of just expectation. It comes from an author that is from Aotearoa, New Zealand. She basically just refused to write this in the Western fantasy tradition. She was like, "Nope, this is going to draw on like our heritage. This is going to draw on Māori heritage. It's going to use vocabulary that people use when they're in Aotearoa, New Zealand. And I'm sorry, but you just have to keep up. If you're a Western reader, good luck, have fun."
[00:20:33] This is called The Dawnhounds by Sascha Stronach. I think that's a good example of a book where it made it a little difficult. I actually had to start it twice. The first time I just had to set it aside and then I came back to it and I just loved it and could not put it down.
So sometimes that type of world building does work. But right now there's so much happening in the world. There's so much going on. There's so much just weight everywhere. I'm really looking for that sense of easily just sliding into something where it feels different, fantastical, full of possibilities and just delightful.
ANNE: We're hearing that from a lot of readers right now.
HOLLY: Mm-hmm. I think it's that time in our life.
ANNE: I love reading a book that I've been meaning to read forever, especially sometimes a classic or a modern classic and having that sense of like, "Oh my gosh, if I'd known how good this was going to be, I would have read it ages ago. What was I waiting for?"
[00:21:25] I'm so curious to hear if your experience with Shards of Honor is making you look for other, I think you used the word "gaps", other gaps you could fill in, books you've been meaning to read for ages. But also, I mean, I can see how it might make you want to run away with the whole 15-book series.
HOLLY: Yeah. I think some of both. Some of each. I definitely put the next book on hold at the library, so that will be coming my way. But I think it's also make me say, okay, who are some of the other writers in this space that I haven't yet explored?
And whether they are more backlist or just newer titles, I think there's such a wealth of writing happening in the science fiction genre right now too, because of so many of the questions that we are facing in our lives. There's a lot of writing right now in this space about AI. And that's not new. One of my favorite series is Ann Leckie's Imperial Radch trilogy, which was, you know, I want to say like late 2000s, early... I didn't look up the date when it started. But it was at least a decade ago that the series, this trilogy, was published.
[00:22:29] And it dealt with a sentient robotic, you know, character and what that looked like and how that interacted with humanity and aliens and all the other people and concepts that were on the page. So, it's not new, but I feel like there's been a big uptick in that happening lately as we are trying to grapple with how we use AI in our lives or don't or retreat from it or embrace it or adapt it. I know that's a conversation that just is permeating everything right now.
So, again, I just love that science fiction allows us to look at questions like that without having to ground it in the very sometimes heavy everyday realities of what it means for like our jobs and our lives and our communities. We can instead say, how do we think about this creatively in a different context? And yeah, I'm not going to give away the title today because it's going to be in our upcoming team test books of summer, I think, but I've got a particular one in mind that I really have enjoyed on that topic lately.
[00:23:27] ANNE: I'll wait patiently. Where else are your explorations taking you?
HOLLY: I am doing a lot of revisiting of series that I've started but have not completed for some reason. So, Arkady Martine's Memory Called Empire, which I adored. It was a five-star read for me a few years ago.
I actually discovered that thanks to your Patreon conversation with Emily Van Ark ages and ages ago. But I haven't read book two, A Desolation Called Peace. It's been on my Kindle for years. I don't know. I think I've been hoarding it a little bit. But she just released a new book. So, now I'm like, okay, I know I have something else in the works from her. So, I can go back and read book two knowing that it's not going to be the bottom of the well for this author who I really, really like.
And then looking at just new-to-me writers, Adrian Tchaikovsky, he's everywhere. He's prolific.
ANNE: Oh, I keep seeing him everywhere, but I haven't read him yet.
HOLLY: And I haven't either. Again, I don't have a good reason for that other than I just haven't. You know, limited time, so many books that are drawing our energy and attention. But that's somebody who I'd really like to start to explore his world and his writings this year.
[00:24:36] Let's see. Kameron Hurley, who is an author that actually our team member Bren recommended to me. And I have a few books on my Kindle that I have not yet read.
I think one of the things I mentioned in our Mid-Year Freakout Bonus episode is that I've been really trying to work through my Kindle TBR this year. And maybe this is illustrating some of why that's a goal that I have. So, those are a few authors that I'm really, really excited about.
And then just looking at a few other backlists like Sofia Samatar's A Stranger in Olondria. That's been on my TBR for years. I've heard so many great things about that and its follow-up. So, that's high on my list right now as well.
ANNE: Holly, I know that you're shifting more towards sci-fi than fantasy, but I can't imagine you've... wait, no, no, no, no. I talk with you in Slack every day. I know you haven't left fantasy behind. What kind of fantasy is working for you well right now?
HOLLY: I'm really enjoying fantasy that is in that mythology or fairy tale retelling, like kind of sub-genre.
ANNE: Oh my gosh. This is on my list for you. Okay.
[00:25:40] HOLLY: And specifically when it is a non-American tale. I think we all know... or even like a non-European mythology or mythos, because I think we all know those stories and we've seen so many of them. And I'm still reading those spaces, right? I'm reading the new T. Kingfisher, which is based on the Snow White myth. I love that. I'm not saying no to those things, but there are so many other tales and stories that we can draw from.
Another book that I mentioned in the Mid-Year Freakout, which I'm so excited about is The Door on the Sea by Caskey Russell. This is being billed as a tlingit, indigenous retelling, or not retelling, but take on like the Lord of the Rings. Again, not a Western mythology, but I love the idea of looking at this through a different lens, through a different cultural perspective. And I just got that one on NetGalley, so I'm quite excited about it.
[00:26:34] ANNE: Holly, for those dabbling in science fiction, fantasy, or really any other genre where they just don't feel, you know, as conversant with like what's out there, what to expect, their readerly radar is not as finely tuned as they feel like it is in other genres. You know, like for a good family saga, I can read the premise and read a couple pages of the book and have a good idea of, not if it's going to be like a five-star read for me or a three, but have a good idea of what kind of neighborhood I'm in. For those who aren't feeling as acquainted, can you just walk me through a little bit of how you experiment, what catches your eye, what you've learned you do and don't like. If you could just riff freely on the idea of experimenting in a genre you're still getting acquainted with, I think that'd be really useful. And plus, I'm just nerdy curious, please.
HOLLY: Absolutely. I think that there are a couple ways I could answer this. One is that there are definitely writers who have written sort of more traditional contemporary fiction or literary fiction or genre fiction that maybe is not fantasy and sci-fi, like say a murder mystery, who have also written in the science fiction or fantasy genre or sort of some crossover books.
[00:27:48] So, I feel like that's a really great place to sort of dip your toes in the water if you are not sure about reading about dwarves and elves and magic or, you know, sentient robots in space. I think that that's one thing I definitely think about, is if I read something by an author... and for me, it often works in reverse. It's like, oh, well, I really like this author's speculative fiction novel, and I see that they've written, you know, a contemporary fiction novel, maybe I'll give that a try and see what I think about it.
I also think, you know, looking at some of those tropes or grounding ideas can help you understand kind of what you're getting into and only changing, you know, some of the factors versus all the factors. A great example of this, I think, is there was a book a few years ago, I believe in the Summer Reading Guide, and I am not remembering the title, but it was by Mary Robinette Kowal.
And this was the like murder mystery, but it was on a spaceship, and there were some science fictiony things going on, but it still felt more like kind of a noir murder mystery in space.
ANNE: Was this The Spare Man?
[00:28:54] HOLLY: This was The Spare Man. Thank you. That was it. I think that is a great entry point also is to find a story or a book that is, you know, maybe it's dealing with the types of themes that you enjoy as a reader, but it just happens to have a different setting. You know, maybe it's a heist novel and you love heist stories, but it happens to be on a spaceship, right?
ANNE: I'm laughing because I love a heist story in a really... I mean, literally sometimes out there setting.
HOLLY: Yeah. Well, I think a great example of that is like The Six of Crows duology by Leigh Bardugo. I mean, that is a very broadly appealing story that is told in a way that I think is accessible to a lot of readers because it has this heist framework of like, okay, we know kind of who the different characters are and what their role is and how they all work together. But there also happens to be some magic-y things going on.
I think that it's such a spectrum, right? It's like there is hard science fiction and fantasy that is very dense, has its own languages, is very, I would say, inaccessible to the kind of average reader who doesn't necessarily have a passion or an interest in that. But that's really only such a small subset of the genre.
[00:30:15] I think that one of the best ways to know where to start with science fiction fantasy is to ask someone who reads in that space, right? And that's kind of what we're doing today.
But I know Shannan had written a great post about kind of a beginner's guide and her journey into science fiction fantasy, you know, talking to booksellers at your favorite bookstore, looking at things that have worked for you and seeing, okay, who else is writing like this author?
I think Becky Chambers has been such a great entry point for so many, because her books feel inviting. The kind of growth of the cozy fantasy, cozy sci-fi sub-genre as well, I think is a really good place to dip your toes in and to kind of see where it takes you.
ANNE: Yeah. Okay. Thanks for that. On that note, we thought it would be fun today to share a few very specific book recommendations for those getting started with branching out, you know, just like a step or two beyond your comfort zone.
[00:31:13] So three very accessible, hospitable titles, and also three just super niche and nerdy ones for those who are like, "Yeah, yeah, Holly. Of course, I've read that. Tell me something different." Are you ready?
HOLLY: I am. Let's do it.
ANNE: Holly, let's start with the broadly hospitable ones. Take it away.
HOLLY: Absolutely. I kind of put these into three general categories of like science fiction, fantasy, and just speculative more broadly. That's kind of hard to define. Like we talked about earlier, it's a pretty broad umbrella.
But for science fiction, I've already mentioned Becky Chambers. I think there's really very few better places to start than with her work because it is so hospitable. But I also think this is an opportunity to think about, if one of your biggest barriers to starting to read in this space is the world-building, what if you could step into a world that has already been created?
[00:32:08] You know, whether you're a fan or not, I think everyone in our current culture is aware of the Star Wars universe. And there's been this growing ecosystem of shows on Disney Plus with The Mandalorian and Andor and all of that. So we're seeing a lot more people, I think, viewing and engaging with this Star Wars universe than maybe there were originally with the movies.
There are a whole... like you could fill a bookstore with Star Wars books. They are out there as well. That was actually one of my earlier entry points into the sci-fi genre.
Also, that kind of solidified my love for it was reading the Timothy Zahn trilogy back in the early 1990s. But since then, this is where I come back to one of my earlier points, you know, authors that are already known and loved, like Claudia Gray, for instance, she wrote The Murder of Mr. Wickham and some related titles. So not in science fiction, fantasy genre space.
[00:32:59] She has written a whole bunch of Star Wars books. And some of them are following Princess Leia after the events of the original series and what happened with her and her political journey and all this. So again, this isn't for everyone, but if you're looking at wanting to fast-track the world-building, this could be an interesting niche to look at for you. So those are a few sci-fi ones that I would want to point out.
ANNE: Okay. We also need to tell the readers who don't know what you told me that shocked me. I didn't know Rebecca Roanhorse had a Star Wars novel.
HOLLY: She does, yes. And there are a number of, again, popular writers who have also written Star Wars books. I have not actually read her Star Wars novel yet, which feels like a major gap in omission. So I will be fixing that.
ANNE: You know, it's something to look forward to.
HOLLY: It is, absolutely. So those are a few entry points I'd offer. Again, and it's been talked about so many times on the show, but I do think Martha Wells and her Murderbot series is a great pick here too, particularly if you choose to pair it with the Apple TV show, which I have mixed feelings about, but overall I'm a fan of. So could have a whole conversation on that but...
[00:34:06] So if we shift to fantasy, I really enjoyed The Adventures of Amina al-Sirafi, which was also a past Summer Reading Guide pick. This feels to me like a really accessible, fun way to dip your toes into the fantasy world because it has a woman who has questions and concerns about her family and her relationships and her career, but she's also, you know, fighting mystical sea beasts and things like that.
So we have magic, but we also have these really fully bodied characters that you want to root for. It's really a voice of humor throughout. It doesn't feel like it's taking itself too seriously. It's not something that feels inaccessible in any way. So I think that is a really great starting point.
ANNE: No, I mean, that one has like some... it deals with serious issues. And also... I mean, is it wrong to say it feels like a romp?
[00:34:57] HOLLY: No, I completely agree. I think that's a good word for it. Again, it's coming back to the ability of the genre to do just that, to address serious issues and questions while also feeling entertaining, light, detached from the drama and struggle of everyday life, which again, is something I love about it.
I think there's another series that I believe I've mentioned periodically here before, but Kristin Cashore, she writes kind of young adult or young adult-feeling fantasy books. And she has a series of interlinked stories in the Graceling Realm.
I feel like these books are just wildly underrated. They feel very accessible and easy to read. They deal with sort of fantastical elements, but they don't feel too foreign or too far. I think she does really, really easy world-building really well. So that's another good starting point, I think, for this particular genre.
[00:35:51] Then, if we look at speculative fiction, I mean, gosh, this is so broad. We could go in so many different directions. But one of my top picks here is Connie Willis. I think if you look at things like her time travel books, like the Doomsday Book, where this woman gets transported back during the time of the Black Death or the plague, now I'm not sure which is which as I'm speaking about it, but in any case, she gets sent back in time for this. There's a few other related stories with time travel. Some of my favorites happened during the London Blitz.
Again, she just takes things that were actual events that happened in the world with real people that could be our neighbors and our co-workers and says, Okay, well, what about if this happened? Or what if this one thing changed? What if this magical situation happened?
I think that's another sub-genre that can be very appealing to people that falls into this speculative sci-fi-ish genre, which is alternate timelines. And that's something that can feel... you could go down the rabbit hole with that. But I just think of The Man in the High Castle by Philip Dick. What if Germany won World War II? There's no magic there. There's no elves. There's no trolls under bridges. There's no space opera. But it's this immersive “what if” question that tells a really fascinating story.
[00:37:08] ANNE: Yeah. And I'm noticing that going back to the how to begin experimenting, what direction to move in, how to kind of sense what might work for you. I'm a little surprised by my gut reaction, which was, oh, I love those when you're talking about alternate histories. So just in my mind, I was going, wait, is that true? It absolutely is. I love an alternate history.
Because the questions they ask are not necessary, but the places they take you are so fascinating. And, you know, I'm also noticing places outside science fiction fantasy where that kind of interest could take me. Like right now I'm reading The Power Broker by Robert Caro.
I feel like the whole thing is a big like, what if this dude hadn't been in charge? What if different factors had driven the development of, specifically in this case, New York City? And I feel like Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin also had this big "what if" lingering over it, even though it wasn't, obviously, science fiction fantasy. That's narrative nonfiction history.
[00:38:09] But I think I'm saying I love the "what are the possibilities? What's the chain of events?" And the books that really appeal to me in science fiction fantasy... oh, gosh, that's a broad generalization. They couldn't possibly be true. But I am saying that that sense of possibility, what could happen, what impact do our actions have, or fate sometimes, I'm here for it.
HOLLY: Yeah.
ANNE: Okay. Thank you for going on that verbal processing journey with me, Holly.
HOLLY: My pleasure.
ANNE: Connie Willis. Thank you.
HOLLY: Yeah. Connie Willis. All right. So we wanted to share some niche and nerdy titles too. And this is going to be so dependent on what your particular niche is. But there are a few that I would share.
ANNE: Holly, we're talking about your reading life today.
HOLLY: For sure.
ANNE: Let's hear it.
[00:38:49] HOLLY: I've already touched on a few of these, actually, as we've had our conversation today, so there is a little bit of a repeat. But I think Ann Leckie's Imperial Radch trilogy that starts with Ancillary Justice is pretty nerdy. Her world-building does not hold your hand. It just drops you right in and you have to figure out what's going on. And there's ships and embodied AI and political intrigue. And it is a lot. But once you get in, it is just fascinating.
I loved this trilogy. It probably would be one of my top three picks if we were doing our traditional, tell me your three favorites to be representative of this genre, this would be one of them.
ANNE: I haven't read these yet, but at my local bookstore, they are big fans of this trilogy. And every time I walk by this section, I'm like, oh, right. That's on my list. Thank you for the reminder.
HOLLY: Absolutely. And she's written a few other works too that I have not yet read. So those are also high on my, okay, let's get back into our sci-fi world reading.
[00:39:44] She has a novella called Provenance and then a newer book that's completely unrelated to this other universe. So she's still doing some great work and I'm excited to read more of her books.
ANNE: Sounds good.
HOLLY: One other one that I would point out here, again, in sort of a classic throwback is Hyperion by Dan Simmons. It's a 1989 classic of the genre. It is inspired by the structure of the Canterbury Tales and follows a bunch of different perspectives on this sort of dramatic storyline. I don't want to say too much about it.
ANNE: Wait, what? I don't know about this one.
HOLLY: Yes. I highly recommend it. The only thing I will say is I read the sequel and I found the sequel profoundly disappointing. So read it and just let it be a standalone if you pick this up.
ANNE: Okay.
HOLLY: But yeah, Hyperion is, I think... again, I don't want to say too much because of spoilers. Although if it's a 1989 book, I don't know if that's a thing. But it draws on this structure that I think is really accessible, even if the story it's telling feels foreign. Should we go to fantasy?
ANNE: Yeah.
[00:40:46] HOLLY: Again, I mentioned this one already. This is The Dawnhounds by Sascha Stronach. This book does a lot of crazy things, but at its heart, we also have a noir mystery with a detective who is trying to figure out a problem.
ANNE: Ooh.
HOLLY: That part of it makes it feel accessible, but it's in this crazy world where there's been a war and metal is no longer being used in this society. And they basically managed to tap into mushrooms and biohacking and mycelium-grown houses. And it's very biopunky, which can feel a little bit, again, confusing at first when you jump into the world. It took me a little while to get into it, but loved it. I think this is a book one in a trilogy, book two is out.
Again, you're going to see a trend here. I haven't read book two yet. So this is maybe my year of reading book two in my trilogies.
ANNE: Honestly, I love that for you.
[00:41:43] HOLLY: Yeah, I love that for me too. It's great. And then with speculative and fantasy, oh gosh, I could just go so many directions because again, there's so many subgenres. But I want to call out a particular subgenre called weird fiction. This is a genre that kind of blurs the lines and often includes a heavy helping of horror or body horror. Jeff VanderMeer is a well-known author in this space.
But the one that I would recommend for readers that are curious to kind of dip their toes into this genre is China Miéville, The City & the City. It stands out in my mind years later as one of the more thought provoking books I've read about how we live in the world around us.
Basically, the concept here is, and you're going to see a bit of a trend, there's a murder, murder mystery, detectives, all these stories that overlap. But it takes place in this world where there are two cities that occupy the same physical space, but have reached a political arrangement where you either live in one city or the other city, and you can only see and interact with the city that you live in.
[00:42:47] So it's very kind of hard to conceptualize this initially. But you know, you might be walking down the street, and if you're a member of one city on the other side of the street, a dog barks. And if you acknowledge that physically or visually or verbally, you could get arrested by the police for violation of the city coexistence rules.
It's a fascinating story. I loved it. It's been made into a limited series on, I believe, Amazon Prime that I thought was pretty good as well a few years back. But China Miéville is a very prolific writer as well, and someone that I think is doing interesting things in this space. But I think The City & the City is a great entry point for his writing.
ANNE: Okay, that sounds amazing. I've checked that out of the library a few times and haven't yet read it.
HOLLY: I would encourage you to maybe give it another try and see what you think. I'd love to know.
ANNE: This is my sign. Okay, Holly, what are you reading right now? And what are you reading next?
[00:43:43] HOLLY: Right now I am reading a bunch of books for the upcoming Patreon bonuses that I'm working on. So I don't want to give them away too much. I'm going to take a hard right turn here, actually.
So one of the things I love, as I've talked about already, is immersive world-building. And one of the genres that does that for me really well, outside of sci-fi and fantasy, is a lot of the narrative nonfiction memoir. Particularly, I'm thinking of The Place of Tides by James Rebanks, which I am just starting and so excited about.
But I feel like books like that, that just immerse you in a world that is ours, but is so foreign. Because I have never been to this tiny island and worked with eiderdown and ducks. I know nothing about this. Bring me in. Tell me all about it. Let me learn. Let me be immersed in this. So that's one book that I just got started on that I am excited about reading.
[00:44:37] ANNE: That's interesting to hear how your natural next steps into new literary territory look. That makes me want to walk into Charlotte McConaghy with you. Have you read her?
HOLLY: You know, I have not. I have gotten Wild Dark Shore from the library several times and have not gotten to it. And my hold has expired. I've been told by a lot of people that that would be a great starting point for me with her writing. And when I say a lot of people, I mostly mean you and the podcast.
ANNE: I didn't know we were having those conversations, but I'm happy to discover that.
HOLLY: One way, but the point was coming through. So that is definitely one I'm very curious about.
ANNE: There's also a really strong link, if only in my mind, between that and the James Rebanks, both extreme top and bottom of the world climates, undergoing changing environments, changing ways of life. Yeah, there's a lot there for you.
[00:45:36] HOLLY: And I love a remote destination like that, whether it's a spaceship or an island at the end of the world. I also am newly starting The Shadow of What Was Lost by James Islington. So he has become really well known for his book, The Will of the Many, which I think Bailey had maybe talked about in a recent episode or bonus or maybe just in our book talk channel, I'm not sure. But that has gotten a lot of attention, I think, lately.
He also has this more high fantasy — again, here we are going back to fantasy. It's still there. Don't worry — series that has just been so well spoken about. And I'm really excited about making some progress in that one.
ANNE: I was about to say we all have our touchstones. Is that true, do you think in the reading life?
HOLLY: I think so. I think so. It's sort of the ideas or the places we keep coming back to. Oh, and then my other thing I'm working on is working on my T. Kingfisher reading.
[00:46:32] Leigh put one of her books on my radar last year when I was in a bit of a reading slump. I mentioned that I'm reading her new, I believe, forthcoming release that is grounded in Snow White.
ANNE: What's that called?
HOLLY: It's called Hemlock & Silver. I believe it's coming out this August. Another one that just got a starting on is... actually it's a re-release, but it's an author, Andrea Hairston, and her book is called Mindscape. Again, this is one of these stories that's kind of talking about information and control and elements of AI without being super AI-focused.
It is an older book that I would put into the sci-fi or speculative space, but that's another one that... she's been on my reading list for quite a while. So I'm excited to see how that one goes for me.
ANNE: Holly, thank you so much for this deep reading dive into your reading life and the options in the science fiction and fantasy genres. I've added so many boo... well, four "read this immediately" books to my own TBR. So thank you for that. And I know it's not just me.
[00:47:35] Now for those who want even more book recommendations or just like different flavors of what might be available for them and what they're looking to read next, where would you point them?
HOLLY: Yeah. So we have so many great conversations over in our Patreon archives, as well as forthcoming. I mentioned a few episodes that do have forthcoming with Starter Guide. That's going to be coming out this fall.
We actually have an episode dropping this Friday on Patreon where I'm sharing some of my most anticipated science fiction fantasy releases as a little Summer Reading Guide bonus add-on addendum. So that's coming forward.
But also if we look back in the archives, your conversation with Emily Van Ark, I know we'd had some great follow-ups with some past guests about their reading tastes in this space. We'll put some links in the show notes for that. And I did a bonus that was much more fantasy-focused about a year ago called Female-Forward Fantasy for your Fourth Wing Hangover. So if you missed out, that one has some good entry points as well.
[00:48:32] I also mentioned Shannan's post on the Modern Mrs. Darcy blog, which was Science Fiction/Fantasy for beginners. Shannan and I love getting to talk about our sci-fi fantasy reading together. I would definitely direct readers who are curious about this space to check in with her recommendations as well.
ANNE: That sounds perfect. Thank you so much for stepping in the spotlight today.
HOLLY: Oh, so, so much fun. Thank you for having me, Anne.
ANNE: Readers, I hope you enjoyed today's conversation. If you have recommendations to share or you want to share what you just put on your priority TBR, we would love to hear. Please leave a comment to let us know on our show notes page. That's also where you'll find the full list of titles we talked about today. We do that for you every episode because this is need-to-know information and we want you to have it.
Find those things at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.
Sign up for our newsletter list at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter to stay in the know about what's happening at What Should I Read Next? HQ, weekly updates on the show, new fall merch will be coming your way soon, Fall Book Preview information. That is the place to get it. Want to make sure it lands in your inbox.
[00:49:44] We're on Instagram @whatshouldireadnext.
And if you could take a moment to follow us or subscribe on your favorite podcast player, that helps our show and our team in real and tangible ways. We are on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Pocket Casts, wherever you get your podcasts. When you subscribe and even more download each new episode, that is a quick, easy, and totally free way to show your support for our show and really put your vote of confidence in front of our ad network and our peers. So thank you for that. It truly makes a difference.
And thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wielkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Production, along with support from our whole team. Readers, that is it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.
English (US) · 